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Reading the current Economist, I found this wonderfully evocative passage, drawing me in:

“OBSERVED at a distance, traditional societies hold a great fascination for people who are raised in the secure world of middle-class modernity. There is a keen appetite for memoirs and works of popular anthropology that offer some sense of what it is like to grow up in a setting where loyalty to the extended family, the faith, the tribe is unquestioned; and where people’s self-worth depends on acting out rituals and roles inherited from distant ancestors. When set against the atomised solitude of some forms of contemporary Western existence, life as an Ottoman imam, a tsarist peasant or an African warrior can appear romantic—even, somehow, whole and well-integrated where modern life is all too often fragmented and prolix.

For anyone who has ever felt a tinge of rose-tinted nostalgia for the traditional, Ayaan Hirsi Ali provides a bracing, and on the whole healthy, cold shower. Having experienced traditional society from the inside—in the form of a Muslim Somali family headed by a well-known politician who practised polygamy and left a deeply troubled and dysfunctional progeny—she has no time for sentimentality. As the world’s most famous ex-Muslim (who became a politician in the Netherlands, then a public intellectual in America), she tells people who have grown up in countries shaped by the Enlightenment and the scientific revolution that they don’t know how lucky they are.

Her African upbringing, as she recounts the story, was dark, fearful, full of tedious labour, meaningless rituals and irrational cruelty of which female circumcision was only the most egregious example. People succumbed to terrible diseases because they did not know the elementary facts about hygiene and health. An obsessive concern with the hereafter sapped their will to take practical steps that could have made their lives more bearable.”
— book review of her new book, Nomad

I had a chance to talk with her in the quiet shade of the trees of Aspen….

Regarding 9/11 as a trigger for her fracture of faith: “when I told my mom that there were Muslims in the World Trade towers, she replied ‘if they were in the towers, they were not Muslims.”

In response to a question from Deborah Scranton, the director of The War Tapes who was sitting with us: “For anyone who has spent time in the Muslim world, it is obvious that they believe they are in a holy war with the West.”

36 responses to “Retrograde Recursion”

  1. nomadica Avatar
    nomadica

    Thanks for sharing. It prompted me to buy her book (downloaded to kindle).

    Reply
  2. TomiTapio Avatar
    TomiTapio

    Hmm I haven’t read Infidel yet.
    J-man, you sure got some scary teeth!

    Reply
  3. true777 Avatar
    true777

    Tradition, like religion, spells out a set of strict rules for living, and by doing so gives a sense of security to those intellectually incapable, or too timid, to set their own standards and create their own rules for living their life. If you were to do away with tradition, and possibly religion, what would you replace it with given that many, if not most people may not be intellectually capable or brave enough to create their own rules for living and make them smart enough to work for them? what would you replace it with? Fashion advice on E! online? People Magazine? Lady Gaga? People will always look for guidance, and lock onto most anything that’s presented to them and that those they trust subscribe to. If that wasn’t true religion and tradition would have died a long time ago. And while I am an atheist and have the same problems with tradition that you state I do believe that for some it might be the last bastion that keeps them from slipping into drugs, gangs, violence, or whatever else their demons might be. I know it’s a scary thought, but I do believe that a completely self determined life for everyone is an illusion. I don’t think most are capable of setting good rules for their life, and I don’t think most people would even want it. As soon as old rules (tradition, etc) go away, most folks immediately look for new rules – gurus, self help books, TV shows on how to live, etc. And I don’t think it’s that different between us and the Muslim world.

    Reply
  4. PhOtOnQuAnTiQuE Avatar
    PhOtOnQuAnTiQuE

    Cool reading and article.Interesting thoughts =)

    Religions, familial tradition/obligation, educational conditioning, social normality, working environment, stories about how to live our life since we are kids, about what to think or dream for…. etc.

    Had a dream the other day where a group of people (humans) and monkeys ( saw a doc about bonobos that day =) where wondering about what was the human experience, from a "brain" point of view.

    One of the gorilla was asking something like :
    Could we really be some kind of "memetic machines".
    Where what we call our life, and our self, are some kind of residual artefacts, illusions or complex simulations running a representation of the world, through the spectrum of our believes, theories, and personal "stories" we tell ourself in the search of meaning or purpose. (while eating a banana)

    What if their is no meaning. No purpose. No real reason to act or think most of the time, the things we think, we think about. Because all our thoughts are just "programs installed". Or memes, or whatever theory we may like to believe in. But running in the "matrix" of our life and world. Where the power of ideas, is truly stronger than anything, from a society, individual, and civilisation decision-making point of view.

    Without believes life would have not purpose. Without purpose people/society/groups would n’ t do most of the thing they do. Our all life is based on the believe that our representation is true…etc etc.

    Have you ever asked yourself or others: How do you see the world ? And most of the time the answer is about telling a story, explaining a theory. But how about the story behind the story ? Where does that story comes from. How did it arise in our mind. How did I became this information entity, sharing information with the world and others.
    Thinking I am thinking, and my actions, thoughts are the only way they could be…and end of story.

    This post, the article and her story remind me of the importance of asking ourself these questions. What are the Stories, running in our brain and society.
    What are the Stories running into YOUR BRAIN ?

    Going on Mars, creating 100% free and infinite energy, or becoming a galactic civilisation won’ t change a thing, I think too.
    But our search for understanding of the human brain, what some call the human/techno superorganism, and the way we see the world, share it and act upon it, will….could.

    And when it does. It won’ t be a revolution about our place in the universe, the universe itself, or all of it together. But it could be the Reboot Revolution. Rethinking our way of thinking.. could be the most important thing since the beginning of our civilisation.
    (and then monkeys went back into the zoo…humans too.. )

    Ps : Funny thing, was looking for something on fora-tv and came across the both of you side by side on the first page =)

    Reply
  5. jgury Avatar
    jgury

    “For anyone who has spent time in the Muslim world, it is obvious that they believe they are in a holy war with the West.”
    Muslim world is a big place my man. They don’t all think alike. Fancy that! There are even Christians who live in the Muslim world moving in and out of the deepest parts of the faithful just fine. Also, how about all those Muslims in South America? Are they not part of the Muslim world? Or the Muslims in China and India.

    Reply
  6. jgury Avatar
    jgury

    Parrots who are trained to spout lies are recursively coercive. Parrots who are trained to mix lies with the truth are devilshly recursive. Parrots who pick up the phrase "retrograde motion" are an example of a retrograde recursion if you release them with other parrots.

    Reply
  7. msamaclean © Avatar
    msamaclean ©

    "For anyone who has ever felt a tinge of rose-tinted nostalgia for the traditional,"…
    Yes, we are easily mesmerized by the cohesive appearance of long held tradition & seemingly well anchored societies. But nothing is ever what it appears, completely. We must remember to remove those rosy shades & try to glean the reality…sometimes, not so easily realized.
    I have listened to Ayaan Hirsi Ali speaking on several occasions and her strong views are always thought provoking. We cannot ‘see’ the world unless we have multiple view points!

    Reply
  8. Jonathan Ruff Avatar
    Jonathan Ruff

    Ayaan is amazing. I got to hear her speak and meet her at a conference entitled: "The Collapse of Europe" at Pepperdine a few years back. I can hardly imagine a more courageous person.

    Reply
  9. jgury Avatar
    jgury

    "…. some sense of what it is like to grow up in a setting where loyalty to the extended family, the faith, the tribe is unquestioned; and where people’s self-worth depends on acting out rituals and roles inherited from distant ancestors. "

    What is being raised a strict Catholic, chopped liver? Blahhh Blahhh
    Blahhh. Such shallow thinking and viewpoints. Courage? The collapse of Europe? Please. I don’t have to imagine very hard to point out a few buried persons who showed courage when it comes to dealing with a collapse in Europe. People our president forgot about paying his respects to on 6/6/2010.

    Reply
  10. nimboo Avatar
    nimboo

    She was on The Colbert Report earlier this week. Very impressive!
    http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/309925/ju...

    Reply
  11. jgury Avatar
    jgury

    "Wahabism is the most pure form of Islam"
    What about Sufism? I think they are a fine example of pure Islam with deep deep historical roots and influence to this day if I am not mistaken.
    This woman is well intentioned but really does not know what she is talking about nor does Colbert sorry to break the news to you, which is something I am very good at.

    Reply
  12. jgury Avatar
    jgury

    "Ayaan Hirsi Ali wants us to shed the inhibition of judging and say that one religion is better than the other."

    As I recall my basic Christian training we are not supposed to hold each other in judgement in terms of faith and belief. Highly taboo and for good reasons. Seems some folks have not had an upbringing in a mainstream Christian church that is for sure.

    Reply
  13. jgury Avatar
    jgury

    This is the Amazon and Zeneida is not what I would call an atheist..
    http://www.caruanasdomarajo.com.br/zeneidalima.php

    Reply
  14. jurvetson Avatar
    jurvetson

    Halliday: yes, the criticisms apply to all organized religion. and yes, it motivates some to get off the planet! =)

    true777: I am more of an optimist about evolutionary dynamics, even at the scale of cultural norms where the pace of progress seems glacial. Looking beyond the medieval sky god religions, with their rudimentary moral code, we have actually come quite far. Many societies no longer condone rape, slavery and genocide (as glorified in those holy texts), they actually outlaw it.

    Reminds of of a cheeky quote from H.L. Mencken:
    “People say we need religion when what they really mean is we need police.”

    jgury: regarding "we are not supposed to hold each other in judgement in terms of faith and belief. Highly taboo and for good reasons."

    Yes, there is a reason that criticism is taboo. Propagating a norm that critical thought is taboo serves the self-preservation of a viral meme, but it is not good for the host.

    Reply
  15. jurvetson Avatar
    jurvetson

    [edit: disappointing to see the person who posted the prior comment now censor themselves away. Perhaps you were convinced =)]

    Quite the contrary. Consider this passage from Sam Harris in 2004:
    Harris p26 Harris p27

    Reply
  16. Dr DAD (Daniel A D'Auria MD) Avatar
    Dr DAD (Daniel A D’Auria MD)

    I’ll have to read her book. Nice to know there are still a few who can find "the path" to enlightenment.

    Reply
  17. jgury Avatar
    jgury

    Faith as "the most prolific source of violence in our history." Sure. I do not recall Hitler, Stalin and Mao as having anything whatsoever do to with faith or religion. Likewise with WWI. Pol Pot? How about American behavior in Vietnam? Absurd statement by Sam Harris, whoever he is.

    Reply
  18. Astrocatou Avatar
    Astrocatou

    OK…lets keep Flickr peaceful…
    We all agree on one thing…its too bad humanity can’t seem to do better..!

    Flickrites…forward, march!!

    Reply
  19. jgury Avatar
    jgury

    Do you know so little history as not to have an understanding of what the term "test of faith" means from Roman times all the way to the founding of the United States of America? Does the basis for the separation of Church and State ring any bells here. I can assure you that it is not a good idea to abandon core values like the prohibition of judgement on the faiths of others regardless of their intolerance. This includes those who have blind faith in Science, technology and reason regardless of the fact they offer no means of containing ever more terrible ways to destroy life and the planet. Shall we subject their research to panels on public safety, or just trust government and military to do the right thing? Critical thought and judgment are not the same thing by the way.

    Reply
  20. Dr DAD (Daniel A D'Auria MD) Avatar
    Dr DAD (Daniel A D’Auria MD)

    Here here dave!

    Reply
  21. Astrocatou Avatar
    Astrocatou

    jgury
    By the way…just as a change of subject…I can’t help being drawn to yr icon…
    Is that one of the "Two Ladies and a Motorcycle" cooking women…??
    I forget the details…
    That was a great show…
    You sound a bit like her…
    Am I imagining this coincidence..?

    Maybe you ARE her…!!
    She certainly had strong convictions…
    (But I believe she is deceased…)

    We could discuss that show at some length…!
    Artery cloggers,the two of them…yummy!

    Might be a good change of pace…

    Reply
  22. jgury Avatar
    jgury

    Sorry Dave that is the real me. JGuryIV. If you care to look me up to verify my id you won’t find that many of us. I am the one with the University of Chicago degrees. JGuryIII is the one who was USAF, he is deceased. If you care to comment on his image it is in my flickr stream. Is that the bullseye nebula in your icon Dave?

    Reply
  23. jurvetson Avatar
    jurvetson

    Jgury – We agree on some key points. We should shun blind faith, whether to communism or any belief system. "Blind faith" is endemic to religion, and incompatible with the scientific method.

    Yes, the atheist Founding fathers of the U.S. saw the value in separating church and state. That does not imply that religion is somehow protected from human reason or free speech.

    And regarding other world conflicts, yes, there have been many sources of violence and suffering in the past. As a society, we openly criticize those tragedies, and try to improve as a culture. That’s the point. We need to openly discuss religion in the same light. It does not need special protection, as if it would somehow wither under rational scrutiny. The women on our planet deserve better.

    Conflict for economic and political reasons may lessen as we forge more economic interdependence as nations. The secular trend has been a cause for optimism. Reviewing the data, Steven Pinker finds that violence is dramatically declining:

    “The decline of violence is a fractal phenomenon, visible at the scale of millennia, centuries, decades, and years. It applies over several orders of magnitude of violence, from genocide to war to rioting to homicide to the treatment of children and animals. And it appears to be a worldwide trend, though not a homogeneous one. The leading edge has been in Western societies, especially England and Holland, and there seems to have been a tipping point at the onset of the Age of Reason in the early seventeenth century.”

    At the end of the article, he gives four hypotheses for the progress, all related to political, economic, and technological advances. And this is why Harris and others, looking forward, see religion as the looming source of most pan-generational, persistent conflict.

    I suggest that society should seriously reconsider the self-serving marketing messages that:

    1) religion is immune to scrutiny, and

    2) that children are somehow born into the religion of their parents.

    Reply
  24. jgury Avatar
    jgury

    Atheist Founding fathers of the U.S? What about Washington and Franklin?

    Hereby, too, I shall indulge the inclination so natural in old men, to be talking of themselves and their own past actions; and I shall indulge it without being tiresome to others, who, through respect to age, might conceive themselves obliged to give me a hearing, since this may be read or not as any one pleases. And, lastly (I may as well confess it, since my denial of it will be believed by nobody), perhaps I shall a good deal gratify my own vanity. Indeed, I scarce ever heard or saw the introductory words, "Without vanity I may say," &c., but some vain thing immediately followed. Most people dislike vanity in others, whatever share they have of it themselves; but I give it fair quarter wherever I meet with it, being persuaded that it is often productive of good to the possessor, and to others that are within his sphere of action; and therefore, in many cases, it would not be altogether absurd if a man were to thank God for his vanity among the other comforts of life.

    And now I speak of thanking God, I desire with all humility to acknowledge that I owe the mentioned happiness of my past life to His kind providence, which lead me to the means I used and gave them success. My belief of this induces me to hope, though I must not presume, that the same goodness will still be exercised toward me, in continuing that happiness, or enabling me to bear a fatal reverse, which I may experience as others have done: the complexion of my future fortune being known to Him only in whose power it is to bless to us even our afflictions.

    Reply
  25. jgury Avatar
    jgury

    Key concept. Grace can only be hoped for not presumed. Highly
    Protestant and Masonic. I think Franklin’s own words in his Autobiography are enough to conclude the man was not an Atheist.
    Masonic rites are highly Theistic to this day, even more so in the Colonial United States. Gerorge Washington and Benjamin Franklin were very important Masons to say the least. Did you ever wonder about that funny apron Washington is wearing in many portraits? What that means? Guess not. Atheist US founding fathers is not a statement that I think any reasonably educated American would ever make. How can I possibly have a discussion on Muslim history and theologies with someone who does not know the basic history of his own country? Or on the Hindu experience with the Mughal invasions and the solutions of Akbar the Great which are essentially acceptance just like Vivekananda advocated.

    Reply
  26. jgury Avatar
    jgury

    One simple point is that the Muslim world is very big indeed. One thing valid for critical thought is it helps to somewhat understand the topic you are having critical thoughts about and not to make abject and obviously false statements about very solid matters of fact. Makes a person look pretty stupid and misinformed has been my experience. Much like one good counterexample is all it takes to crush the best of scientific theories or one bad accident to wake people up to some of the dangers out there. By the way, I doubt if Ayaan Hirsi Ali understands the significance of code 19 algebras. I really like the tight numerology and geometries that are integrated with worship in the Muslim world. Worthy of great respect. I love the stuff.

    Reply
  27. jurvetson Avatar
    jurvetson

    That’s how the scientific method works. Apply it to your beliefs.

    Nobody said all the founding fathers were atheist (and even that term means different things to different people; "secularist" might have been the term for some of them). I provided a link to some fun quotes, but I don’t think you clicked it. Some of them are actively hostile to the religion of their day, and they actively lobbied for the separation of church and state:

    "I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life I absented myself from Christian assemblies." — Benjamin Franklin

    The scientist speaks: "Lighthouses are more helpful than churches." — Benjamin Franklin

    "I have recently been examining al the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded upon fables and mythologies. The Christian God is a being of terrific character — cruel, vindictive, capricious, and unjust…" — Thomas Jefferson

    "The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." — Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams

    "Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." — Thomas Jefferson

    "History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance" — Thomas Jefferson

    "Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man." — Thomas Jefferson

    "During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."
    — James Madison

    "Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise" — James Madison

    “Have you considered that system of holy lies and pious frauds that has raged and triumphed for 1,500 years.” — John Adams

    Washington – well, we know what a suck up he was to his parents, with that whole sordid cherry tree affair. No wonder he toes the line.
    (jgury – fyi, that was a joke =)

    Reply
  28. jgury Avatar
    jgury

    Theism is bigger than Christianity to put just one Franklin quote in context. You are also confused about the differences between Protestants and the Catholic church. However, good jokes are always accepted. Was there more to the cherry tree story than we might have thought. Some sort of colonial hanky code for a sex act? He chopped the Cherry tree, wink wink.

    Reply
  29. jgury Avatar
    jgury

    http://www.physorg.com/news197209671.html
    The organized math community simply failed to connect with
    Perelman who may have been a bit closed minded. I see his point.

    Reply
  30. Astrocatou Avatar
    Astrocatou

    v
    I was working in my garden…and thinking the same thing…oddly enough.So thanks.

    I am sure you can all contact each other elsewhere…………

    Reply
  31. jurvetson Avatar
    jurvetson

    v – it’s a menstrual pheromone thang

    Reply
  32. jgury Avatar
    jgury

    Thread topic context reentry is based on Wahhabism and the extremist views.
    http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RS21695.pdf
    atheism.about.com/od/islamicsects/a/wahhabi.htm
    I find each of these lacking in substance particularly in light of the recent attacks against
    Sufi sites in Lahore, regardless of who is responsible. The Punjab has been a spiritual hotbed farther back than the Mongol invasions (Islam was to their liking for many good reasons) and further discussion is best taken elsewhere to offer no provocation to atheists, agnostics, and rationalists. The conceptual framework for understanding being beyond their needs for rational proofs of what is in essence axiomatic for the entire subcontinent.

    Reply
  33. Astrocatou Avatar
    Astrocatou

    ????????????

    Wahappened here ?

    Reply
  34. jgury Avatar
    jgury

    Much of this shallow thinking comes from people like Richard Dawkins who are always making false general statements about notions of general "Islam" as if the religion can all be covered in his pop pseudo scientific reasoning. Which is really antithetical to his laughably simplistic notions of atheistic reasoning.
    Back to thread topic. Here is Hissa Hilal,
    who chooses to stay in the Muslim world standing up for her beliefs while showing a fine
    mastery of Islamic verse….
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/saudi-woman-...

    A taste of that straight talk is below. It’s an excerpt from Hilal’s semifinal poem, translated by the Abu Dhabi newspaper The National, in which she decries the actions of conservative clerics in the Muslim world.

    I have seen evil from the eyes
    of the subversive fatwas
    in a time when what is lawful
    is confused with what is not lawful;

    When I unveil the truth,
    a monster appears from his hiding place;
    barbaric in thinking and action,
    angry and blind;
    wearing death as a dress
    and covering it with a belt

    He speaks from an official,
    powerful platform,
    terrorizing people
    and preying on everyone seeking peace;
    the voice of courage ran away
    and the truth is cornered and silent,
    when self-interest prevented one
    from speaking the truth.

    http://www.caribbeanmuslims.com/news?Page=4

    Reply
  35. jgury Avatar
    jgury

    "While she’s to be commended for her staunch defense of women suffering under Sharia law, the Somali-born former Dutch politician’s few good deeds shouldn’t absolve her for being to Islam what Ayn Rand was to Communism. Hirsi Ali notoriously received death threats for writing the screenplay to Submission, the documentary which inspired the assassination of its director Theo van Gogh, and her ridiculous objectivist spin on this tragedy was nothing short of shameful:

    “[The killer] was on welfare….he had the time to plot a murder, which in the United States he would not be.”

    The consummate over-reactionary, what could have been an inspiring career based on reason and social justice quickly devolved into one of neoconservative lunacy. "
    http://www.salon.com/2012/08/04/five_most_awful_atheists_salpart/
    Of course Christopher Hitchens went even farther into the useful idiot category with his necon war mongering and lunacy, which is a legacy that continues to poison atheism by association if not outright advocacy.

    Reply
  36. Gray Moon Gallery Avatar
    Gray Moon Gallery

    Nice photo!
    Submission / Soumission by Jan Theuninck

    Reply

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