Dinner with Dawkins

38 responses to “Dinner with Dawkins”

1. 

   Ned Trifle

   Oct 6, 2009 at 7:53 pm

   To be fair to the Charity Commission it’s a fairly standard question they ask all charities, "please explain how x benefits y", it sounds silly in this context I guess but when you imagine how some people try to set up charities for the flimsiest of reasons (i.e. "to help…like…people and stuff") you can see why they ask it.

   Having said that – love this photo – Dawkins looks so happy! Was it you or was Ariane Sherine standing behind you? 🙂

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2. 

   The Rocketeer

   Oct 6, 2009 at 7:55 pm

   Romans 14:10-11 says…

   14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

   14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

   This is the fate of all, including the illustrious Richard Dawkins. I’ll pray that he sees the light before that day comes so that he is judged worthy.

   Oh, about the earth being less than 10,000 years old. Many believe that it is, but I don’t. I believe that the current dominion of mankind is a little over 6,000 years old, but there were others before us that were wiped out, including other animals such as those found in the fossil record that were on an earth prior to Genesis 1. The original Hebrew language allows for this possibility, but the translation we have in English tends to make you think the earth was created only a short time ago.

   God Bless

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3. 

   PhOtOnQuAnTiQuE

   Oct 6, 2009 at 8:39 pm

   "We should teach children how to think rather than what to think"
   Ramen to that !!!
   How was the blood ? O ; )

   Did you talked about :

   "Turkey bans biologist Richard Dawkins’ website"
   Turkish internet users have been blocked via a court order from accessing the site of prominent British biologist Richard Dawkins after complaints from lawyers for Islamic creationist author Adnan Oktar, the website of Turkish television station NTV reported on Wednesday. richarddawkins-net

   This portrait of Dawkins reminded me of a photo I took and forgot to send you, back in Roma.

   

   And will end with a quote :

   "The meme for blind faith secures its own perpetuation by the simple unconscious expedient of discouraging rational inquiry." Dawkins

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4. 

   jurvetson

   Oct 7, 2009 at 12:17 am

   A cluster of beliefs, if untethered to reality, is easily hijacked. And yes, many people want to believe in belief (vs believing in a specific sky god per se; see Dennett).

   PhotonQ: no, but he did mention that his site is particularly popular in Iraq.

   Ned: I see what you mean…. Yeah, he is looking right past me…. Probably with visions of Ariane =)

   

   Rocketeer: Humans started 6000 ago?… Any evidence you can point me to for that? And, trying to fathom how this belief integrates with all that we have learned…so… was it non-humans that invented agriculture and beer and domesticated the dog thousands of years before humans???

   Were my ancestors non-human when they left Africa 60K years ago, and were they still non-human when they spent 40K years in what is now Iran before migrating to Estonia?

   

   Do we have to ignore the 18,000 year old pottery found in China? Do we have to block out all discoveries of modern science to protect a fragile belief system?

   Perhaps you are feeling down… with the INRI virus. Get well soon!
   =)

   Joking aside, I really do appreciate the bravery it takes to defend belief in the face of science and evidence. Otherwise this discussion would lack the voice of the majority of Americans. Many of them could not even begin to defend their faith, but they would mob you if given the chance to silence opposition. There’s something magical about finding someone who tries to rationally defend their faith – much like finding a truly religious adult who freely chooses to believe a mainstream religion. By freely, I mean choosing a religion different from their childhood exposure, and not a conversion in the pursuit of marriage. I have been looking for someone like that for years, even asking anonymous matchmakers if they can find one for me to talk to. I’m sure some of them are out there, but wow, they are very hard to find. If a religion were really compelling, you’d think adults would choose to believe it without childhood tutelage.

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5. 

   restlessthought

   Oct 7, 2009 at 12:32 am

   i fear i wallow a bit too much in the banality of our age…. every time i see richard dawkins, i think of south park.

   just to stir the pot (the devil made me do it… honest.) …i recently read an interesting paper by nick bostrum outlining a typology of potential harms from knowledge. nick is the director of the future of humanity institute at oxford university, also on the oxford faculty in philosophy.
   http://www.nickbostrom.com/information-hazards.pdf

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6. 

   nels1

   Oct 7, 2009 at 1:39 am

   @Photon: interesting and sad about the Turkish ban. i recall a while back that Adnan Oktar or an associate of his posted photos promoting their islamic creationist book in the Viva! Evolution group. after i questioned him on their wild claims, they subsequently removed the photos and cancelled their flickr account.

   @rocketeer: how is it the "fate of all" if one does not believe in the bible?

   "Allah has cursed the unbelievers and proposed for them a blazing hell." – Sura 33:60

   …is this your fate too? and is it the fate of all, as some believe, that the world will end in 2012?:)

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7. 

   billehunt

   Oct 7, 2009 at 2:40 am

   What a great night with Dawkins and Hitchens as well – very inspirational! Loved the singing of host Dave Cowan and his group too.

   Prof. Dawkins new book "The Greatest Show on Earth" is great so far.

   Steve, wish I could’ve had a chance to hang out with you as well.

   Dawkins and Hitchens were kind enough to take a pic with me: img203.yfrog.com/i/llg.jpg/

   The night was a fundraiser for the Richard Dawkins Foundation for Reason and Science (http://richarddawkinsfoundation.org/), a great cause.

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8. 

   The Rocketeer

   Oct 7, 2009 at 10:48 am

   Steve, the 6000 year calculation is done through the documentation of the Jewish bloodline which has been kept throughout the years.

   I never said there weren’t humans prior to Adam and Eve. I said that that the Hebrew text allows for previous existences prior to Adam and Eve… Google Pre-Adamic man.

   Nels1, your belief is not required for it to come true. Just as the belief that hurricanes do not exist won’t protect you if you live in Florida.

   My belief doesn’t stem from what my parents told me to believe. My belief is built from the curiosity instilled within me that stokes the desire to learn about science and religion. I have the same curiosity that you do to learn, but I decided to learn more about faith. Faith by definition requires you to accept something that is not proven. I feel I am a better person from my belief, however, and I won’t judge you if you do not believe. I learned (different from my parent’s Church’s teaching) that it is not up to me to judge your actions… that’s God’s realm. He will judge us, not me.

   Thanks for the kind words, Steve. I am glad that our differences don’t keep us from being friends. I do treasure our friendship and your open mindedness to listen. That is also rare.

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9. 

   helen sotiriadis

   Oct 7, 2009 at 1:20 pm

   thank you for this… i’ve posted it here
   toomanytribbles.blogspot.com/2009/10/dinner-with-dawkins….

   the links should be working correctly.

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10. 

    helen sotiriadis

    Oct 7, 2009 at 1:23 pm

    oh, btw:

    .. and others.

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11. 

    sbove

    Oct 7, 2009 at 3:54 pm

    I used to think Mr. Dawkins was a bit the "fundamentalist" in his atheism (even in his TED talks of yore)…but now that I’ve had a chance to hear him being confronted by terrifyingly ignorant creationists, I understand the source of his zealotry. He has also greatly refined his articulation of evolution and atheism as separate but related concepts over the years in a way that makes him decidedly more palatable. And he has tempered his passion with wry humor and wit far more becoming of a great author and scientist. All hail Mr. Dawkins…his is a great crusade! 😉

    PS: he is speaking tonight in Berkeley (in a church)…it is sold out.

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12. 

    jurvetson

    Oct 7, 2009 at 5:08 pm

    tribbles: thanks…. but… but… the more tribbles the better!

    sbove: Yes, here is the TED talk video with the comment "evolution is fundamentally hostile to religion."

    I had lunch with him that day at TED, and I think the context of the time was the emergence of Intelligent Design, and the setbacks in the U.S. schools (leading to the rise of the FSM no less), not to mention the new spate of religious wars and 9/11.

    Over time, his base state is one of wonderment and awe, as scientists unweave the rainbow.

    restlessthought: thanks. I had not seen that. The truth can be dangerous, and he thought of more info hazard categories that I could have imagined! If you are in the ruling class, the precepts of religion help maintain the peace and social order. If life is unfair or unbalanced for the poor, look to the afterlife and 72 virgins. And if that’s not good enough, layer in a caste system for this life, with reincarnation as the method to change one’s lot. Best not challenge that framework… The opening quote caught my eye too:

    he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow
    — Ecclesiastes 1:18

    Rocketeer: Interesting pointer. I did not realize that pre-Adamism started as a pagan argument! Funny how an idea morphs over thousands of years, again when decoupled from evidence. To hold up, I guess they will have to ignore genetic archaeology. Back then, they had human bloodlines to track. Even the name evokes primitivism. Questions like this would be pretty easy to answer today if scientists took them seriously…

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13. 

    Happy Tinfoil Cat

    Oct 7, 2009 at 5:11 pm

    40% WOW

    No wonder things are the way they are politically. People who want to build a better country / world, need to have a game plan to nullify this. Someone has to fight the fight and Dawkins is the man for the job, but, we need to find a way around this obstacle. The GOP is very good at using this to control the masses. We need to unlink this debate from politics. It’s a stalemate and you can rarely convince a believer otherwise (in either direction).

    I can imagine a new religion for scientists. It could have a deity who is infinitesimally small and powerless. And doesn’t exist in our universe but rather, a parallel one. Made of dark matter. Started the big bang. And fathered Jehovah, Jesus, Allah, Buddha, etc. Particle physics and astronomy could be considered a search for God. ;^) This religion would explain the world in a way much closer to the observed reality

    "Why does God let terrible natural disasters happen?"

    Answer… "Well, He is completely powerless and doesn’t exist in our universe, but I have full faith in his existence. After all, my god is your god’s dad." ;^)

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14. 

    Resh B.

    Oct 7, 2009 at 7:21 pm

    I hadn’t checked your stream in awhile. Glad to have stopped by today; interesting read.

    Back to coding now.

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15. 

    benjiman

    Oct 7, 2009 at 7:51 pm

    AMEN on that last line. As a parent that’s something I think about constantly. The hardest part is explaining the "why" of religion.

    I JUST DON’T GET IT.

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16. 

    TomiTapio

    Oct 7, 2009 at 10:46 pm

    We love Mr. Dawkins!

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17. 

    nels1

    Oct 8, 2009 at 2:38 am

    @Rocketeer: hurricanes are different to gods in that they are observable and verifiable through scientific evidence. not believing in hurricanes is very different to not believing in gods.

    my question always comes down to the simple idea that in the absence of any evidence for any god and that it is a belief based on faith, which one do you choose over another, and why? (hence the contradictory statement from the sura i previously mentioned).

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18. 

    The Rocketeer

    Oct 8, 2009 at 10:11 am

    nels1, I use the same observable evidence in building my belief in one faith over another, which makes the belief in hurricanes and God not so different. I have observed that many of the prophecies in the Old Testament of the Bible have come true. In fact to this date, not a single one has failed. There are many websites dedicated to the discussion of these evidences. One that seems to be fairly user friendly and to the point is here: http://www.amazingbible.org/ Feel free to peruse it and acquaint yourself with the prophecies of the old text and see what has come and what is yet to come. We’re in the end times, folks, so it is going to be very tough for all, but especially for Christians and Jews. Persecution will come in the form of political correctness and we will be ostracized because we will be accused of discrimination and not accepting other beliefs.
    We could argue that the interpretation of some of the prophecies are subjective, but some are so precise that there can be no argument that they’re accurate. That builds faith in one belief over another, but a closed mind will not accept that.

    Sorry to drone on, but I wanted to give you an answer to your question, nels1.

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19. 

    Ned Trifle

    Oct 8, 2009 at 11:22 am

    In fact to this date, not a single one has failed

    OK, I’ll play along. How about Ezekiel 29:9-13?

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20. 

    Texarchivist

    Oct 8, 2009 at 2:25 pm

    <3 Dawkins.

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21. 

    W9JIM

    Oct 8, 2009 at 2:33 pm

    RE: Ez 29: 9-13

    Ancient historical prophecies like this are hard to pinpoint and confirm, and are often not recorded well in the annals of history. One possibility is that this period was when Babylon, under King Nebuchadnezzar, reigned supreme in Egypt from ca. 568/67 bc to 525 bc, until Cyrus gained Persian control again.

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22. 

    jurvetson

    Oct 8, 2009 at 3:53 pm

    Exactly!

    Rocketeer (and Jim perhaps): Thanks for the pointers… Any "accurate" prophesies still forthcoming that we can test?

    If the only remaining one is "the end is near" with date unspecified, then it seems like a bit of a bummer for a worldview. Should we sit on the street with a 2012 sign, and cry wolf again?

    I’d be willing to bet any amount of money that humans do not become extinct by a date of your choosing. If you truly believe your prophesies, you have nothing to lose. But you know you won’t take the bet, right?

    The problem with retrospective rationalizations is that they are just that. You can find a lot of prophesies in Moby Dick, and not nearly as many people have been looking. You know the scientific method, and how to test a hypothesis….

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23. 

    Eric Rolph

    Oct 8, 2009 at 11:50 pm

    Thank you Steve for promoting science in the face of blind faith. Here’s to Dawkins, a hero for the ages.

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24. 

    The Rocketeer

    Oct 8, 2009 at 11:52 pm

    Steve, there are some accurate prophecies you can look forward to seeing fulfilled, I believe in your lifetime. I don’t think much will happen at the end of the Mayan calendar, Dec. 21, 2012… but the following will occur between now and the return of Jesus. Now this is "the meat of the Word". We are told these things so that we know when the end time comes:

    Many of these prophecies come from the book of Daniel, 2 Thessolonians 2, and Matthew 25-

    The third and final Jewish temple will be built on the Dome of the Rock or more likely just North of the Dome of the Rock, (where the first Temple was built) with the outer court being left for Gentiles.
    The Jewish people will begin daily animal sacrifices at their Temple.
    There will be a horrible war that will kill one third of mankind.
    There will be a return of the Holy Roman Empire.
    There will be a very powerful political leader that comes out of the European Union that will eventually become the Antichrist.
    This leader will bring peace to the Middle East.
    There is an event called the "Abomination of Desolation" that occurs in the Jewish Temple. This event is triggered by the world leader when he stands in the temple, suggesting that perhaps he is "The Messiah" they were waiting for. After all, he is the one that brought peace to the Middle East, he will argue. He will say that animal sacrifices will no longer need to be made. He will be so charming and persuading, he will even fool many Christians into following him. He will have miraculous power and charm almost everyone on earth.
    At the end of a seven year period from this point, there will be the worst fight the Earth has ever seen. This will be Armageddon. The Antichrist will be defeated, Satan will be bound and Jesus will reign on Earth for 1000 years.

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25. 

    nels1

    Oct 9, 2009 at 3:44 am

    @Rocketeer: you still haven’t answered the second part of my question though and it is one that i rarely get a straight answer to:

    *my question always comes down to the simple idea that in the absence of any evidence for any god and that it is a belief based on faith, which one do you choose over another, and why? (hence the contradictory statement from the sura i previously mentioned).*

    if you believe in the bible prophecies, for what reasons do you NOT believe in the mayan prophecies?

    and if you really believe the end of times is near, what is your position on climate change and what humans as a species should do about it?

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26. 

    Ned Trifle

    Oct 9, 2009 at 7:00 am

    There will be a very powerful political leader that comes out of the European Union that will eventually become the Antichrist.

    It says this in the Bible? I knew that Berlusconi fellow looked shifty.

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27. 

    The Rocketeer

    Oct 9, 2009 at 9:52 am

    nels1 I did answer your question directly, because the prophecies have come true that are in the Bible. I don’t believe in the Mayan prophecies because the source has not proven itself as those in the Bible.
    My position on climate change is that everything is cyclical and humans had nothing to do with affecting the current climate we’re experiencing. The "carbon tax" that is being pushed upon us is a scam to make money and control nations.

    Ned Trifle, yes it says that in the Bible, but it doesn’t give a name.

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28. 

    Ned Trifle

    Oct 9, 2009 at 11:24 am

    How very convenient.

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29. 

    nels1

    Oct 9, 2009 at 3:02 pm

    @Rocketeer: there are people with just as much, if not more, conviction than you that the prophecies of the quran have come true.

    why is it that you do not believe in the quran and its prophecies?

    this is probably a good time to re-read the brilliant passage written by carl sagan about the dragon in his garage …

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30. 

    The Rocketeer

    Oct 9, 2009 at 5:11 pm

    nels1 , instead of writing a dissertation when I am supposed to be working… I found a lot of research has been done to either validate or prove false the teachings of Muhammad. Please feel free to peruse the following site: http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/false_prophecies.htm

    As it states in the first paragraph there, Deuteronomy 18:20-22 provides us a method to determine if a prophet is false. There is then detail on some of the examples on the site you linked to being countered. Only one needs to be false to prove all does not come from God, therefore that is why I discount the quran.

    Sorry, I must return to work…

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31. 

    jurvetson

    Oct 10, 2009 at 4:34 am

    Rocketeer’s prophesy is mind bending.

    There will be a return of the Holy Roman Empire.
    The Jewish people will begin daily animal sacrifices at their Temple.

    I still can’t quite fathom it all. At first, I was a bit distraught, but I just thought of a positive angle: cultural anthropology.

    Herein, we have a wonderful time capsule of medieval thought. Without an institutional framework that repels new ideas and evidence and science, all of this richness would have long faded into obscurity from absurdity and disproof. For the myriad dead religions, we have lost that history, much like a lost language. It may be near impossible to recreate the rich fabric of the native ignorance of the past without the benefit of ideological mummification.

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32. 

    biotron

    Oct 11, 2009 at 12:25 pm

    wow, i wasn’t quite expecting this during a casual Sunday morning persual of my favourite photostream… jings…

    "One-third of trees are burned up. All green grass is burned up. One-third of the sea will become blood. One-third of the creatures in the sea will die. One-third of the ships are destroyed. One-third of the waters become wormwood (or poisoned, or radioactive)."

    why, pray tell, does green grass have such a bum rap in comparison to everything else? 🙁

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33. 

    Darrin R Towne

    Oct 11, 2009 at 1:23 pm

    Wow! Wish I could of been there. I’ll be attending his lecture in NY this month.

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34. 

    brentdanley

    Oct 12, 2009 at 6:05 pm

    So wish I could have been there!

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35. 

    jurvetson

    Oct 15, 2009 at 12:19 am

    biotron: Burn all the grass! Must be an anti-Rastafarian dig. =)

    They moved the date of Xmas to compete with a pagan ritual, so this does not surprise me.

    P.S. Just found that David posted his Pastafarian prayer:

    From your Heavenly head to your Farfelly feet,
    you’re cloaked in fresh ziti—both dashing and sweet!
    You don’t like to boast
    But you’re smarter than most
    with Noodly Knowledge from Sky Monster College.

    Your blond AngelHair , with buttery flair
    Is streaked with linguine.
    Your Son the Rotini,
    Who did twist and coil, was born of virgin olive oil.

    Vanquish the sinners who eat milk with pig,
    who worship the physics, the bio the trig!
    Show them whose meatballs are big!

    Now, join me in common
    To praise The Great Ramen.
    Together say: Amen.

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36. 

    biotron

    Oct 15, 2009 at 2:05 am

    "Better is a dinner of herbs where love is, than a stalled ox and hatred therewith."

    "Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God."

    "After a storm there must be a calm.
    They catch me in the farm. You sound the alarm.
    Poor me, the Israelite. Aah."

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37. 

    jurvetson

    Jan 18, 2010 at 6:01 pm

    Just read a couple of provocative books over Xmas break.

    "Between the thirteen and nineteenth centuries, as many as 1 million European women, most of them poor and many of them widowed, were executed for witchcraft, taking the blame for bad weather that killed crops."
    (Levitt & Dubner, Superfreakonomics)

    versus

    "When Kevin Kelly was traveling in China in 2006, he found that every elementary school in every village had a sign over the door in Mandarin with the following guidance:

    LOOK UP TO SCIENCE.
    CARE FOR YOUR FAMILY.
    RESPECT LIFE.
    RESIST CULTY RELIGION.”

    (Stewart Brand, Whole Earth Discipline)

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38. 

    biotron

    Jan 19, 2010 at 10:33 am

    i like the look of that Brand book already, having peeked at a few excerpts and read some reviews.

    i’m not sure the Levitt & Dubner is as high a priority… is this a fair summary in your view? "Professor Lysergic Acid of the University of Middle-Earth" – 😀

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