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Stu Kauffman just gave a fascinating talk at the Almaden Institute on Complexity.

I would bet that his discussion of cells and genetic signaling networks will also apply to the brain and synaptic networks. The evolution of evolution itself moves up a hierarchy of abstractions to act at the network topology level.

Here are my rough notes from Kauffman’s talk:

Cells are dynamically critical because being critical is the best way to coordinate complex behaviors. (critical meaning the edge between chaos and order)

We have been taught that natural selection is the only source of order. What if there was a law that governs all of biology? It would be profound and would alter our view of biology. There are organizing principles that biology “obeys” because it is selectively useful. It’s like finding one of Newton’s law of motion for cells.

Cells are very complex. Genetic regulatory nets:
Transcriptome in yeast regulates 6500 genes, Humans: 25K
Transcription factor -> promoter or enhancer. Protein signaling cascades.
Transcriptome+protein signaling network is a parallel processing non-linear stochastic dynamical system.
Huge web. Nobody knows structures and dynamics.
Systems biology is trying to look for general laws
10^8000 genome state space.
Percolate: order, all fixed states.
Derrida deconstructionist. Mafia+deconstructionist = make you an offer you can’t understand
Hamming distance. Fan-in of K=2 or less. Take a Random network. Take 60K logic gates at random. Each gate has 2 inputs. The system Behavior is simple. It spontaneously goes to ordered regime. Nearby states converge. Dt = Dt+1 is the critical line.

Being critical is very, very rare. If it exists, it must have been selected for over 3.8B years of evolution.

Why cells should be critical?
Cells must bin past discriminations to future reliable actions
• Order: convergence in state space forgets past distinctions. Info-lossy
• Chaotic: small noise yields divergence in state space trajectories precluding reliable action
• Critical: near parallel flow optimizes capacity to bind past and future
Bacteria: operons for different food and different enzymes

Critical Boolean networks maximize robustness to mutations
Cell types correspond to attractors
Critical networks maximize the probability that such mutations leave all existing attractors intact and occasionally add new attractors.
Thus, critical networks optimize robustness of cell types to mutations and the capacity to evolve new cell types.

Mutual information: correlation between 2 variables. Entropy of variable A + B – joint entropy. Between 0 and 1. 0 = no correlation.
Ways to go from order and chaos. Inputs: order until K=2, peak for criticality.
If k greater than 2, then put lots of 1’s in there. P-bias of .15
Model of floral development shows criticality.

E.Coli: apply random 1500 values on real network; also to Yeast medusa network, 200 regulatory genes in medusa head, rest are regulated 3500 genes (humans 2500 regulating genes in medusa head, 23K regulated). If apply random Boolean functions to the yeast network, why would it be critical? This is about the dynamics of the networks. Cells do thermodynamic work. Work is constrained release of energy in few degrees of freedom, but it takes work to create the constraints. Cells do this, but we don’t have concepts for it in physics.

Hela 48 hourly time point. Affy gene array data. Lempel-Ziv analysis. Cells clearly are not chaotic; they are either ordered or critical (data lie on top of each other)
Avalanche size distribution. Deletion – see how many other genes change. Log-log straight line power law. Slope -1.5 power law (critical branching process). 250 yeast deletions, measure how many alter their activity. Ilya’s work.

NCD: normalized compression distance. Analysis of toll-like receptors on surface of macrophage. Ideal compressor. Take random length n, concatenate 2 of them. Ideal compressor will compress to n. 2 random ones, won’t be able to compress it. The more you can compress, the more similar they are. Regression gives a diagonal line, indicating it is critical. Nature, Dec 2006 Max Planck. Binary and ternary discretization leads to line that is critical. It’s breathtaking.

This is self-organization in nature via natural selection. If this is right, it may be a general law, one of the few laws in biology (e.g., Darwin, a few in ecology and population genetics). We will create life anew in the next 15 years. My bet is that life anywhere in the universe will be critical because it is the best way to coordinate complex behaviors.

57 responses to “A Universal Law of Biology?”

  1. What if that Universal Law of Biology were the Hand of God?

  2. This is great… 2 days ago i visited Esthr’s blog and wanted to post something on her article: "Release 0.9: Metaweb – Emergent Structure vs. Intelligent Design , but the site rejected my comment 3 times -after i had writen it. I saved it, luckily. Here is what I wanted to tell her:

    "Hi there E! I believe that a initial design is required up to some extent, and afterwards let randomness do its work. The Universe has a syntaxis and a grammar, a means to creating/trasnforming/transporting information. The grammar of the universe, its unique semmantics(*), are precise, perhaps too complex for us to grasp but in pieces. As long as we are not able to see the big picture, we will still call chaos "chaos" and randomness "randomness". Biology has a language with rules, so does physics and chemistry. I think that System analysts, engineers, database admins, programmers… need an interdisciplinary encounter with Comunication Sciencists, Linguistics and Semiologists to come up with more ideas to resolve the "emergent / designed" conundrum. There is vast bibliography, starting with Saussure to R.Barthes, G.Bateson and Pierce. [Another interesting post with a comments] (*)note that "Sema" means "sign"."[sic.]

    Despite the main subject was other (apparently, but I believe is all about the same = information systems), the funny thing is that the point I wanted to make there was that there is to be, IMO, some ruling law(s), a syntax and a grammar to allow a decodable semantics to exist. This is universal.

    It´s a pity, IMO, that this ruling principle would be confused or directly treated as a synonym of "Inteligent Design" (I.D. = the scientific label to the belief of some people in a "God", or "Creator" of some sort, imo) Yet for me is a completely different discussion, I don´t think they imply each other necessarily. I do think, tho, that we are far off the real level of complexity of the truth, whatever it is. So this speech is not only very interesting for the cell analysis, and such, but is promising because it opens the mind, it puts a veil of doubt to what we have been taught, it suggests new pathways, new synapses, it invites to think beyond… to imagine.

    The Leap of Imagination… here an good example of it. =)

  3. Hands down, Kauffman is one of the best communicators of complexity theory, and its’ application towards trying to make sense of the universe. I am usually able to visualize the intracacies and possibilities of self organization much better after listening to/reading him…kind of like attending a biomathematical sermon.

  4. Addendum to previous post:

    For an interesting historical perspective, look at the ‘gene count’ estimates.

    Presently the estimate is 25,000. A decade ago the estimate was 100,000.

    ? How strange ?

    Why the disparity? (You might be thinking)

    If you look at all the functions of proteins, you would need about 100,000 unique proteins. A decade ago scientists generally believed in the ‘one gene –> on protein’ model. Since then we have realized that through post-transcription and post-translational modifications one gene can produce many proteins. This adds a whole new level of complexity beyond simple gene transcription regulation (quite a complicated system itself). Post(transcription/translation) modification takes place enzymatically, which is a soup-like parallel process which is much more difficult to model than gene transcription regulation networks.

    Some of my colleagues dismiss systems biologists as nothing more than nouveau geneticists trying to drum up more funding. I think systems biologists have great career potential, because the enormity of their stated task is 1) really important and 2) really fucking hard.

  5. oddwick: well stated (post #2)!

  6. Oddwick et al: I recall years ago hearing an anecdote about an Evengelical and a Rabbi on a talk show. The Evangelical asked the Rabbi, "What if the messiah comes and it ends up being Jesus?" The Rabbi replied, "Then all Christians would be Jewish."

    So, what if the Rocketeer is correct? That the "universal law" ends up being the "will of God?" Does that make all scientists persons of faith? (Not that they’re mutually exclusive.)

    When I read the post, my "God" radar started bleeping all over the darned place (but then I already have a ‘God’ predeliction). I just think it’s interesting the contortions we make to avoid the "God" theory. I think it would be so much more interesting to hear a report from the top ten scientists from each major field or discipline set to the task of "disproving" the God theory.

  7. philosoap: here’s a start – take a look at the 2005 edge World Question Center’s "What do you believe is true, but can not prove it?"

    (www.edge.org/q2005/q05_print.html)

  8. aero: I guess I would add to that interesting collection of thoughts, "I believe the logical result of human history — one long trail of vanity — will be the utter destruction of humanity and that the only thing keeping us from extinction is the grace of God. But I can’t prove it…yet."

    But that’s the topic of a separate post and I won’t clutter this one any further. 🙂

  9. @Philo&Rocketeer

    I have never felt the need for a God, nor has the natural world provided me evidence that requires the need for a God. If the natural world provided me evidence which required a God, I would believe in one. If God came into my life, I would believe in It.

    When I read the original post, not once did God pop into my mind. These are all very complex and sophisticated phenomenon, but not one piece, at least in my mind, is outside the bounds of natural phenomenon. Doesn’t disprove the existence of God, but it doesn’t need to…

    …to address your question… the ‘universal law’ being God would not make me a person of ‘faith’. I will only join that camp through rational inquiry. No faith involved.

    I feel no need to ‘disprove’ the God theory. I feel no need to disprove the existence of Earth, Wind or Water Spirits either, which at one point much of humanity believed in. I have investigated the claims of the religious people to my satisfaction and found their arguments unconvincing. Thankfully I have no divine directive (unless you consider Dawkins a god) to evangelize.

    If you are ever in Phoenix, let me know. I’d be happy to present why I find God arguments unconvincing over beer.

  10. At risk of sounding redundant, I reinforce my saying above about the innecessary joint made between "ultra high complexity" = "intelligent design" = "god". I think the 3 things are different entities which may have inclusive relationships between them, but they not imply themselves ontologically or per se.

    Thinking forward the question of God, I have already said too I declare myself a "syntheist", neither a theist nor an atheist. My final answer is: "dear, I don´t know". This allows me to see the problem from all the perspectives without feeling bad about the ambiguities. I repeat: I suspect the universal truth is far more complex than to simply grasp it saying it is god-based or nested-algorithms-based. This allows me to think imaginatively, a thing which both parties (those who believe in god and those who doen´t) would also try to practice. It´s healthy, imo.

    In my imagination I consider the possibility that the day we will create life ourselves, we will understand that we know we are no gods, but there will come to exist living entities who will consider us so (whether they have a consciousness or not). What will be our message to this "sons" of the Human? Free Will, the 10 comandments? Will we resist the temptation to see ourselves achieving a mini-god level? Will these creatures consider us so even if we try to convince them about the opposite?

    What if God, would come one day and say: "hey, guys, I did make you, I made possible the conditions on the Earth for life to exist and so you, but I am no "god" as you thik, I don´t know were I come from, I don´t know who led me this universe thing to administer… I just remember one day I was like "tuned on" and nothing was told to me, I just "knew" what to do, but still I had been given the will to do it or not, or choose how to. The vortex of this issue remains unknown to me too. I´m sorry."

    I consider this not crazy at all… that our personal god, if exists, did make us but does not have all the answers… I fear this reductionism of our minds in general: historically we passed from having thousand gods like the egipcians, to have one per religion, and each religion clains that their One knows it all. This is too simple a concept to explain the universe, imho. And even though I would love to find the answers before I die, I have the courage to live without one big "truth", but a myriad tasty doubts. AMEN! 😉

  11. I have a strong belief in God. It’s faith though, which by its definition is belief without proof. In my studies I found that one of the things that God did not like was when fallen angels bastardized the human genome and created monstrosities (See Genesis 6). I believe there are a lot more regulating factors yet to be discovered that are tied to our genetic makeup than people currently think. Perhaps those regulating factors are put there by God to make it more difficult for us to tinker so much with it. Even so, I believe that humankind will once again be made impure by bringing in foreign genes and that will be in the end days. (Not a racist or "Aryan" statement… all human races should be protected from foreign animal or plant genes) Putting foreign genes into our food is also dangerous. What if we make some frankenfood that takes over?

    I do, however think gene therapy to help cure people of diseases is not forbidden as long as it is not cross species manipulation that is utilized. I’ll finish saying that I believe that all people have a right to believe as they wish and I don’t personally judge anyone for their beliefs.

  12. … yet you seem to reserve a pretty harsh judgment of the post-humans…. =)

    It reminds me of an interdisciplinary class I co-taught with Larry Lessig. It was called “Ideas vs. Matter: the Code in Tiny Spaces” and we discussed genetics, nanotechnology and the regulatory ecosystem.

    We went in with the presumption that society will likely try to curtail “genetic free speech” as it applies to human germ line engineering, and thereby curtail the evolution of evolvability. Lessig predicts that we will recapitulate the 200-year debate about the First Amendment to the Constitution. Pressures to curtail free genetic expression will focus on the dangers of “bad speech”, and others will argue that good genetic expression will crowd out the bad. Artificial chromosomes (whereby children can decide whether to accept genetic enhancements when they become adults) can decouple the debate about parental control. And, with a touch of irony, China may lead the charge.

    Many of us subconsciously cling to the selfish notion that humanity is the endpoint of evolution. In the debates about machine intelligence and genetic enhancements, there is a common and deeply rooted fear about being surpassed – in our lifetime. But, when framed as a question of parenthood (would you want your great grandchild to be smarter and healthier than you?), the emotion often shifts from a selfish sense of supremacy to a universal human search for symbolic immortality.

  13. I guess it all depends on whether or not you believe in evolution.

    OK… here’s a peek into my private feelings…

    I realize I’m risking ostracizing myself, but I have reconciled many things that are debated between those that believe in God and those that don’t necessarily believe in God. I can explain the existence of dinosaurs that are millions of years in the past and the fact that the existence of our current world being only 6000 years old according to Biblical genealogy, for example. I believe there were pre-Adamic existences of a version of Man and odd beasts. I believe God wiped the earth of those and started over with Adam. It all depends on the interpretation of the original text of the Bible and looking for its intent. Why else would it reference "heroes of old, men of renown" in Genesis 6?

    Your comment is an example of how Christians will eventually (already beginning) be considered socially unacceptable because of their beliefs and will be looked down upon as preventing progress. Eventually, we will be publicly humiliated and will not be accepted by society because we’re not progressive. It’s all about Christians being politically incorrect. I see the writing on the wall and it’s already begun. I also see your side of the argument, Steve, and understand your point of view, but I’m anchored in my belief that we should be as God made us, regardless of how I am viewed for that belief. I dismiss the evolution theory as it applies to Man.

    Regardless of what I believe, there will be a change of man within the next 5 years as Ray Kurzwiell has predicted. It won’t be a good thing, though, as people are expecting it to be. It will lead to eventual destruction of mankind.

  14. OK. Sorry, Steve. I didn’t intend to veer the whole thing off into a debate, and I consider myself fairly moderate regarding the semantics used to define "God," however I have another anecdote to share, which again, ‘feels’ right to share.

    In Chaim Potok’s novel, "The Chosen," the two main protagonists are young Jewish boys, both sons of Rabbis. The backdrop/timeframe of the story are the tail-end of WWII and the years immediately following when the burning issue of Zionism were gaining steam in the Jewish community. One boy’s father, a Hasiddic Rabbi, argued that if G-d ordained a Jewish state, he would make it happen without human intervention. Following the formation of the State of Israel the same Rabbi stated that it was obviously ordained by God to occur.

    It is these kinds of paradoxical statements that make discussions with the "faithful" difficult. My own thoughts regarding genetics are thus: That when Jesus returns to reign on Earth, the whole toolbox of human endeavor will be opened up to society. The difference will be that the aims and objectives will not be driven by vanity, greed, fear, and self-interest.

    However, more importantly, the very notion of "God" (to me at least) defies description. God told Moses his name was, "YHWH." This can be interpreted various ways (in itself interesting), but the interpretation I like the most is this: Is | Was | Ever will be. Alluding to the very meta-temporal "otherness" of God.

    The other frustrating argument the "faithful" use is that you really can’t understand the articles of faith without Divine revelation. It sounds like such a neat little Bromide to retreat to, but I have to say, despite my logical mind’s rebellion against such thoughts, my "spirit" thrills and soars with the knowledge that the Creator of the Universe has set up a kind of meta-natural sympathetic vibration between his Spirit and mine.

  15. Wow…Kauffman’s talks usually can spur theological discussions, but when I started reading the original post I really didn’t see this one moving in that direction. But since it has, I am inclined to ask:

    Rocketeer: what part(s) of evolutionary theory as it applies to man don’t you buy into? Or, as you refer to Adam, do you not subscribe to the theory as a whole? Do you reserve this thought to man only?…numerous laboratory studies using fruit flies as subjects do analyze and quantify genetic and morphological changes over hundreds of generations that nicely fit into the scope of a peer review paper. Man is only one species, so, in your mind, is there a different set of biological rules for us vs. the billions of known an unknown species?

    Philo: despite the vanity, one of the most poignant ‘logics’ of human history is that we are living in the midst of the most peaceful time, relatively speaking, ever known to our species.

    Despite my beliefs, I thank my ancestors for believing. The ability to believe in a deity is, likely, an evolved trait that has actually served us well as a species [a great discussion on this is presented by Lee Silver in his book ‘Challenging Nature’; William Calvin, in numerous books, also nicely illustrates this theory]. Along with the bigger brains explosion (a period when the human brain increased roughly fourfold in size) came an advantageous byproduct useful for the survival of our species, along with foresight, art and resource modification. So, I would argue, that the ability to believe has been a very important selective pressure that has contributed to our fitness as a species. That doesn’t absolve us from continuing to seek the truth, and at the same time dismissing arguments not based in science, which argue for equal time.

  16. *sigh*

    I want to jump back into the discussion, but I just don’t have time… but a good convo folks!

    @Steve – I love the evolution of evolution bit! I’ve got a little schpeal I give sometimes about how social movements allow for fast, flexible higher-order evolution, memetics and all that. Add in technology with social problem solving capabilities………. Social groups + communication + gene technologies introduce a feedback cycle back to the original evolutionary substrate. I like.

  17. @todd: (re: social movement + communication + technology + memetics, metaevolution) Neat, I´m back on track with that, Currently beginning to work on that again, on a more serious level this time, as a project, a venture. The original seed idea worked greatly so far, still works, but in a "light", more spontaneous intuitive mode. Now it´s time for the 2.0 version, which coincidentially will most problably run its internet space on a web2.0 site type I am designing. I am very happy about this, it´s of vital importance to me to dedicate to this endeavour, a responsibility I gotta take, for the sake of my life mission. I´ll let you know next relevant news. 😀

  18. You go girl! But don’t mess with your Alien DNA. |-)

    oddwick: bring the schpeal when you have time…. I will be travelling for a bit and so the thread will linger…

    Rocketeer: Did the "writing on the wall" start with Galileo? I had lunch with Dawkins at TED12. He gave an eye-opening talk, and I think he saw a similar end game. Here is an excerpt (bottom half of page):
    "Dawkins rejects the idea that creationism and evolution can co-exist harmoniously. Religion is corrosive of science since it teaches people to accept the simple answers and ignore the real ones; and because creationists can’t attack evolutionary science, according to Dawkins, they attack evolutionists as atheists bent on undermining religion. And they are right: evolution IS truly undermining of religion. Darwinism IS corrosive to religious faith… He also points out that most people are atheists when it comes to the thousands of gods that mankind has believed in in the past (how many of us believe in Zeus?). Modern day atheists just add one more god to the list… Dawkins wants a coming out party for atheists and believes that the scientific world view is so much more exciting, poetic, and beautiful than the religious view of the world. Dawkins makes this case wonderfully in his book “Unweaving the Rainbow,” something I highly recommend to all readers. Is the rainbow more or less beautiful once we understand how it works? Is the wonder to be found in ignorance or knowledge?"

    Aero: In his latest book, Dawkins also addresses the question of why something “so wasteful, so extravagant” as religion would have evolved to be so pervasive. He concludes that it is primarily a by-product, a misfiring of a useful trait making the mind susceptible to certain viruses of thought:

    “Natural selection builds child brains with a tendency to believe whatever their parents and tribal elders tell them. Such trusting obedience is valuable for survival: the analogue of steering by the moon for a moth. But the flip side of trusting obedience is slavish gullibility. The inevitable by-product is vulnerability to infection by mind viruses.” (p.176)

    “Religious leaders are well aware of the vulnerability of the child brain, and the importance of getting the indoctrination in early.” (p.177)

  19. Thank you, J! 😀 I promise I´ll behave… uhm… well, I will try. 😛

    Hey this just a short semi off topic question, but it´s on the same wavelength in regard to all we are left to discover yet. I´ve read long before already about Dark Matter, which remains as one of those universe’ mysteries. Now I read this article about theoretical designs with metamaterials (nanowires) which can/would make objects invisible, by tuneling light and other waves through the objects. I wonder… does the Universe performs such similar trick? Has anyone read something about this possible conection? Is dark matter no more than state-of-the-art invisibility technology? How many things may be fundamentals, pillars of the universe as we know it that we simply don´t perceive (or of the "multiverse" for that matter)? Are we authorized to say that we know how the universe works, which is its governing rule(s) if we can´t check on the possible existance of invisible matter issue (yet we have strong suggestions that it may exist and now we are working roughly on designs to make our own DIY invisibility?)… I ponder.

    O_o

  20. I was worried about what questions I might open myself up to by revealing my thoughts, aeroculus . The truth is that I cannot really know for sure what I am about to say, but in Genesis, we’re not told exactly when there was a division between the angels that followed God and those that were led by Lucifer. That may have happened millions of years ago and as those angels fell from heaven they resided on earth. It is quite possible that they were the first creators of life on earth and they had free reign to influence the fossil record… including early versions of man. There came a time, however, when God literally wiped the surface of the earth clean as though it were a chalk board and started over with His creations. Those would be animals and people as we know them. Sure, there is evidence that animals and plants have the capability to adapt, but I don’t believe that they jump species anymore. That stopped when God intervened and created Adam and Eve. You may laugh and call this convenient compartmentalization of my beliefs ridiculous, but it works for me. You see, I still have a love for Science and the things that are revealed about our universe through Science. I had to study to find a way to reconcile my religion and Science and this theory works for me. I have never been to a Church or heard any sermon that discussed any of what I said above. I had to glean this from my own research and a few others that pointed me in that direction. I resent the fact that it seems that so many of the religious nature are content to only skim the surface of their beliefs and never question any of what they are taught. I’m of a curious nature and want more answers.

    One of my favorite sources for the explanation of how evolution and creation can co-exist as laid out above is from an author by the name of Steve Quayle who in his book " Genesis 6 Giants" explains in great detail the words used in the first verses of Genesis 1 that can be interpreted to mean that we might not be the first time man was on earth. I’m not saying everything that Mr. Quayle has written in that book I fully accept as truth, but there might be a kernel of truth in much of what he says. It’s definitely mind bending and interesting reading if nothing else and encouraged me to study more.

    I don’t know why I’m exposing my innermost thoughts on this thread… I don’t share these beliefs with even my closest friends. I’m always afraid that they will shun me and call me a crackpot. But if it sparks anyone reading it to reinforce their desire to learn more about the history of our existence and start their own research… then that is good.

    Steve Quayle has generously provided Chapter 1 of his book that explains how Genesis 1 can be interpreted to reveal that we might not be the first time man existed on earth. If nothing else, at least read that (with an open mind).

  21. Outstanding discussion! One effort you might enjoy is calresco.org/index.htm which is The Complexity & Artificial Life Research Concept for Self-Organizing Systems. It compares science, philosophy, religion, networks, etc. It is also great for helping explain to others what this is all about. I am still a listener at the moment…

  22. @Steve – interesting points re: Dawkins which take Silver’s theory and expand a little further – & I do fully agree. The ‘trusting obedience is valuable for survival’ and has been beneficial to our proliferation as a species, up to a point.

    @Rocketeer: I appreciate your openness, and I wish more people on both sides of the issue would also be as open. The thing that I just don’t get, however, is that you talk of your love for science and what it teaches us about the universe in one sentence, and then in another talk of god & adam & eve. The two are antithetical, and I don’t see how that can be reconciled.

    Thousands of years ago, taking the written word literally was sufficient. That said, we are now fortunate enough to be alive in a time where blind faith isn’t enough. Discussions concerning the deeper philosphical and scientific questions can and should be (in part) shaped by employing and embracing the better set of tools that are available (namely, molecular biology).

    (the timing of this thread is perfect – I had just started reading Dawkins’ latest book a couple days ago).

  23. Epp… very interesting…. thanks. I too need some time to digest all this.

    Orange_Wedgie: I had not seen that yet. Are they taking an "unweaving the rainbow" approach to Eppie’s unification?

    Rocketeer: thanks for opening up. I would like to read that chapter. I see a page with some text. Is the chapter segmented into the links on the top right? It looks strangely like carnival posters of old with tales of giants and monsters. When you look at pages like this, do you see them as credible sources of information? As with your first G6 link, if we substituted other gods and mythologies in there, would they be persuasive to you? I am trying to understand how one can read these passages and embrace them, and am trying to think of an analogy to help you see it with some distance. What if it was a story of 72 virgins?

    Anyway, I will read the material… and can I ask you to do something similar? Sam Harris wrote a letter, which would take about as long to read. It’s $11.53 on Amazon, or if you email me an address, I’ll send it to you.

  24. ‘This is self-organization in nature via natural selection. If this is right, it may be a general law, one of the few laws in biology (e.g., Darwin, a few in ecology and population genetics). We will create life anew in the next 15 years.’
    Why is evolution accelerating when it is becoming more complex! It doesn’t makes sense. Pure selection would be slowing down the process. So what is the driving component. I am not sure about the traditional Darwin concept.

  25. Jens-Olaf: Very good point, and one that I often get from students. Evolution is not directed towards a simplified endpoint or pinnacle for a given species. If it were, that notion in and of itself, would effectively undermine the premise of the theory. Evolution is a process, not a goal. Therefore the process of evolution, in many cases, does in fact evolve greater complexity….something that Kauffman and others often discuss.

    Better to evolve a complex set of traits, thereby increasing the chance of survival under a variety of potential conditions; that extra genetic and/or physiological ‘baggage’ might come in useful one day. The flip side is evolving such a simple and specialized set of traits that are superb for a specific environment, but once that environment changes (as there is no such thing as a static environment), the species in question is then searching for a survival tool in an empty toolbox.

  26. "Evolution is a process, not a goal." -aeroculus

    A great way to express the idea. I´ll treasure the phrase in my box of good quotes, thank you! =)))

    I am listening to the song I most like from Simply Red, "Fairground" (the rhythm is supreme♪♫). It reminds me of the importance of paying positive attention to the processes, the pathways, more than to the end goal, the destination. It´s the core point of these and other discussions to me, their importance as a place for reunion and exchange. Diversity in fusion. It´s the core of life itself, imo. As they say:

    "Driving down an endless road
    Taking friends or moving alone
    Pleasure at the fairground on the way
    Its always friends that feel so good
    Lets make amends like all good men should
    Pleasure at the fairground on the way

    Walk around be free and roam
    Theres always someone leaving alone
    Pleasure at the fairground on the way

    And I love the thought of coming home to you
    Even if I know we cant make it
    I love the thought of giving hope to you
    Just a little ray of light shining through

    Love can bend and breathe alone
    Until the end it finds you a home
    Dont care what the people may say

    Its always friends that feel so good
    Lets make amends like all good men should
    Pleasure at the fairground on the way"

    If you please to listen (wma file, tho) here. Peace.

  27. @
    When you look at pages like this, do you see them as credible sources of information? As a rule, no. I found the book before the website.

    As with your first G6 link, if we substituted other gods and mythologies in there, would they be persuasive to you? I am trying to understand how one can read these passages and embrace them, and am trying to think of an analogy to help you see it with some distance. What if it was a story of 72 virgins?
    Sorry, no dice. I don’t blindly follow everything Steve Quayle says. He offers extensive footnotes in his book and I check out what he references before deciding whether or not to accept it as plausible. I don’t believe everything he writes. I do believe he brings a lot of truth to the table though. Even Steve Quayle says in his text you have to have an open mind and suspend the notions you’ve been taught before reading it. If it had not been so heavily footnoted with so many external sources, I wouldn’t have even bought it. I thought it was intriguing after reading a few paragraphs and bought it originally with the intent of discrediting him. I was surprised to find he has been very thorough with the subject and some of it is worth considering as plausible.

    You have my email address. Please send your Sam Harris letter for me to peruse.

    Kevin
    (not a lemming)

  28. (Note: I’m traveling and haven’t had a chance to read all of the recent posts — I look forward to it! — however, I wrote the following while on the road.)

    SJ: Why is it always "religion = ignorance" and "science = knowledge?" The spirit of scientific inquiry can be (and for centuries has been) driven by a desire to glorify the works of Our Creator and honor Him with the fruit of our labors (nearly all of the the universities were founded by ‘religious’ men who wanted to expand their understanding of God’s Creation). Dr. Francis Collins, Director of the Human Genome Research Institute at the NIH, wrote the following:

    "I think there’s a common assumption that you cannot both be a rigorous, show-me-the-data scientist and a person who believes in a personal God. I would like to say that from my perspective that assumption is incorrect; that, in fact, these two areas are entirely compatible and not only can exist within the same person, but can exist in a very synthetic way, and not in a compartmentalized way. I have no reason to see a discordance between what I know as a scientist who spends all day studying the genome of humans and what I believe as somebody who pays a lot of attention to what the Bible has taught me about God and about Jesus Christ. Those are entirely compatible views."

    Likewise, I see no difficulty in accepting Darwinism. Darwin was a keen observer of human nature and natural systems in general, and what he saw in the natural world around us was the "survival of the fittest." It drives intra- and interspecies relationships. In fact, it drives the majority of our social systems, economies, and even many (sad to say) family relationships. And in this, Darwinists have observed and drawn conclusions projecting backwards in time to the prehistory of man to say that the theory of evolution is fact; and taken alone, this is logical.

    However, it leaves out what distinguishes us from the animals: our capacity for creativity and love. It is not for nothing that Genesis says, "God made man in his likeness." We were created by the Creator with the capacity to create and imagine and the capacity to love and recognize love. It is what separates us from all the other created species. We all share similar physical traits, because we were all made from the same "stuff." But the difference between Man and all other members of Creation is that God gave us something unique: His spirit. His essence. His creative capacity.

    Personally, I think that the sum of all human effort can be divided along the following lines: That which glorifies God, and that which glorifies man. It is interesting to note, that many contemporary scientists dismiss faith in God while standing on the shoulders of those whose work was driven BY their faith in God.

    I think it is dangerous to avoid the serious inquiry into the Creator of the Universe while simultaneously inquiring into the Universe of Creation. It is an error of Cosmological — and personal — proportions.

  29. GG: thanks. and what wonderful lyrics! Don’t know much about Simply Red, so thanks for opening that door.

    Philo: While Collins is a brilliant scientist, I have to respectfully disagree with his stance on the compatability between his science and his devout faith. I read his book recently and found myself putting it down several times, telling myself that I wasn’t going to read anymore (yes, I did eventually finish it, but it was trying). I resent his stance in numerous public outlets where he condescendingly refers to agnostics as ‘cop-outs’, as if it is just an immature way to view what we don’t yet know or understand. And despite Collins’ scientific achievements, when he refers, to the differences between man and other species as ‘God’s upgrade’, IMO, that seriously undermines his credibility.

    Maybe I didn’t read this entire thread closely enough, but I didn’t pick up any references equating religion with ignorance. Most questions directed towards people of faith are to ascertain a sense of why people believe what they believe. While I may not agree with somone, I still want to know what makes their opinion different than mine (think of how boring life would be if we all shared the same opinions). Also, Darwin is so much more than survival of the fittest. When Darwin proposed the theory of natural selection, he established the foundation of modern biology, and while there are parallels with other aspects of modern society (ie social systems, economies, etc..), it is grounded in biology. As Dawkins says, the minimal unit of selection is the gene. When neoDarwinists connect natural selection with other fields, they do take some liberties, and as SOF is an adaptation of the theory, in some cases this liberty is taken a little too far.

    Further, natural selection does not at all ‘leave out what distinguishes us from (other) animals’. Creativity and love are not unique human charaterstics. Surely you have seen in other species rudimentary toolmaking, mourning the loss of family, and social order?

  30. Thank* you*, glad you liked it. They are cool, you surely heard them before, perhaps not knowing who they were.

    I was just going to mention something arising while I was reading you and you say at the end: for what I read so far from Darwim himself, I can infere that many of the things we claim to belong to him (the characteristcal rudeness of his speech, for example), actually belongs to their followers. Something, this, which happens to almost all thinkers or school founders, they are re-written by their sucesors, and not always for the best. I found Darwin a man of compassion towards life and human beings, and their god-oriented and spiritual predisposition (which in itself is no proof of the existance or inextistance of god, it´s only a characteristic).

    Last, I think philo refered to the religion = ignorance relation because when not explicit, whenever you bring Dawkins to a discussion you are actually saying tacitly: "I think religion is a "misfire" (sic) of human adaptation, it is for children and ignorant adults, and only causes tragedy to humanity." Whether you say it or not, the concept: "Dawkins", means all that.

    In this case, as opposed to what I say about Darwin, I think R Dawkins is not at all compassionate to anything, that he is just as fundamentalistic as those he condenms. If you know you are in the right, there is no need to shout.

    I never been too religious, but belong to a christian family, and I used to have my hard time on religion. I was 14. After a long reflection when I was 20 I could bring the two things together and I lived lot better thereafter. I see many scientists who have been youngsters cursing religion, as they grew older and wiser, came to terms with it (Einstein and Freeman Dyson are just two names). Making the projection, then, I do believe that many of those who today curse religion with rage, will end up, as they grow up, understanding that this discussion is futile and only blinds them, instead of opening their minds. When you see that after having been opposed to something so emphatically you allow yourself to understand it, to be in the shoes of that people and to even recognize that from time to time you might have felt like that in your own way, and you see there is nothing threatening about this, that day you realize you have conquered a vast territory in your mind and understanding, you have opened bridges, expanded yourself and discovered a completely enhanced way to see the world, more colorful, imo. I personally think it is a question of maturity on both sides of the discussion, as I experienced it that way, to some extent.

  31. GG-Therein lies the rub with Dawkins. I certainly agree with some of your interpretations of him, and have thought about this before. While on a fundamental scientific level, I agree with much of what he says/writes, his delivery is, I believe, often damaging to both sides. I still put the Selfish Gene (circa mid 70s) on my shelf as one of the greatest books that I have ever read, but this was written without the acerbic tongue that accompanies his modern writing. I sometimes think that he has the ability, at times, to do more harm than good in debate circles.

    While I may not have a need for religion in my own life, I am however fully supportive of the premise that the choice to believe or not to believe is an intensely personal one. I only ask others whose opinion differs from my own out of pure curiousity, and not to change someone’s mind. If I throw something out there in a discussion that makes someone reassess or question their own values and/or beliefs, I am fine with that. Just as I would be fine with someone giving me a piece of information that would force me to question my own beliefs. So far, I haven’t seen that yet.

    The fact that simply posting of a picture of Stu Kauffman on a photo blog could spur this conversation, leaves me hopeful that the thirst for healthy discussions which are at the same time critical and inviting, is something that we all yearn for.

  32. Brings me hope too. Well said. Thank you. =)

    Here, a little treat:
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/hamillianactor/346204180

  33. Before we sing Kumbaya and retreat into conditioned obsequiousness… pause to reflect.

    Personally, I am fascinated by the rationalizations that a scientist must go through in reconciling recent fact and ancient fable. It is a rare opportunity that I cherish, so thank you.

    As for Dawkins’ diatribes, well, he found a new sense of urgency during 9/11.

    The elephant in the room was too much for him… and Daniel Dennett and Sam Harris. They are trying to appeal to the fence sitters, not the mainstream (who Eppie described so well).

    I just finished Crichton’s Next, and picked up a new book today by Sam Harris that speaks to Dawkins’ concern:

    “Our technical advances in the art of war have finally rendered our religious difference—and hence our religious beliefs—antithetical to our survival. We can no longer ignore the fact that billions of our neighbors believe in the metaphysics of martyrdom… because our neighbors are now armed with chemical, biological and nuclear weapons.

    The very ideal of religious tolerance—born of the notion that every human being should be free to believe whatever he wants about God—is one of the principle forces driving us toward the abyss.

    And yet, intellectuals as diverse as Einstein, Dyson and Gould have declared the war between reason and faith to be long over… It is only because the church has been politically hobbled in the West that anyone can afford to think this way. In places where scholars can still be stoned to death for doubting the veracity of the Koran, Gould’s notion of a “loving concordat” between faith and reason would be perfectly delusional.

    According to Gallup, 46 percent of Americans take a literalist view of creation… placing the big bang 2,500 years after the Babylonians and Sumerians learned to brew beer.

    Certainty about the next life is simply incompatible with tolerance in this one.

    To speak plainly and truthfully about the state of our world—to say, for instance, that the Bible and Koran both contain mountains of life-destroying gibberish—is antithetical to tolerance as moderates currently conceive it. But we can no longer afford the luxury of such political correctness. We must finally recognize the price we are paying to maintain the iconography of our ignorance.”

  34. Let me adjust this paragraph to make sense to me:

    "The very ideal of religious tolerance—born of the notion that every human being should be free to believe whatever he wants about God—is one of the principle forces driving us toward the abyss."

    Replace "religion" for "economic-gain-pursue" and you have my answer about what I think is the world´s biggest problem today and always: economy, power and domination:

    "The very ideal of unlimited-economic-gain-pursue tolerance—born of the notion that every human being should be free to accumulate and take from their fellow brother whatever he wants—is one of the principle forces driving us toward the abyss."

    Religion is just a means used to justify this aberrant ends. But it´s not the only one, the only method. War is about economy and domination, not about god. They used and use religion today and tomorrow they will brainwash people with another thing if they became all atheists, don´t you see? Yet the "spirit" of murder, evil and domination will rermain.

    Make people secular, all evolutionists and tomorrow the evil ones on power will set up economic wars for their personal agendas and will recruit people to go die for them in the name of the "Survival of the fittest". Is it so difficult to understand?

    The problem is in the heart of men. And so therein lies the solution too. Everything else is a consecuence, an effect, change the names, change the details, change the institutions, as long as men keep on wanting to conquer and fight one another, there´ll never be peace.

  35. @Steve

    I empathize with Dawkins, et al. I am still on the fence on whether to join in with their campaign. I am annoyed by religions which encourage evangelism, and I hesitate before becoming evangelical myself. I think my cause is ‘righteous’… but…

    I also think fighting may escalate the situation, and the last thing I want to do in this world is fuel the delusional fervor of fundamentalist dualists. A fair amount of religious propaganda claims oppression, and i’d hate to put truth to their claims.

    Up till now I’ve figured apathy was the most effective weapon in the war on religion, let them waste their energy. My opinion is reluctantly changing, and I’m starting to thing the destructive anachronism of religion might need help out the door.

  36. Up till now I’ve figured apathy was the most effective weapon in the war on religion, let them waste their energy. My opinion is reluctantly changing, and I’m starting to thing the destructive anachronism of religion might need help out the door.

    , as more people come to that realization in their minds, it will be the beginning of a new and final era of persecution of religion… which is what I predicted in an earlier post.

  37. @oddwick – As you empathize with Dawkins, I do empathize with you as well. I certainly think that the need to separate fact from fiction is paramount – now more than ever. And this comes from equally from several perspectives as a scientist, researcher, businessperson and (most important in my mind) as a parent. And EvoBio is only a subset of the larger picture. As you know, more and more, science and technology touch everything. There are now numerous arguments taking place at many medical schools that evobio and ecology should be stressed to 1st year med students right along with physiology and biochemistry (I am continuously amazed how many doctors aren’t very well trained in some of the basic sciences). That’s just one example. Overall, I guess that I have just become a little more pessimistic when it comes to waving the DNA flag, and have chosen to use my energy in issues such as these towards areas where I feel my efforts would be more tractable. I can stress what I feel is important to my colleagues, kids, etc., but beyond that – I don’t know how much good it will really do.

    I have come to rationalize this using what I call, the grandmother litmus test. Generally, everyone’s grandmother believes in god. (yes, this is hyperbole, but it illustrates my point). I come from a large Italian-American family, where growing up, questioning such things was not even a thought. My grandmother (again, this obviously extends beyond just my parents’ parents) used religion in their own way, including socially and culturally – Italian and Roman Catholic were almost used interchangeably until recently. But my dad, who taught biology, started my thinking about other possibilities at a pretty young age. So my gramdmother can view the natural world as a product of a designer, and I choose to view through the lens of evolutionary biology. Now, while I will probably never change my grandmother’s mind, these sorts of discussions would not nhave happened a generation ago. I can still get along with my grandmother (and others..) just fine – the biggest difference is that I believe when I am gone, I am gone and my story ends there, while my grandmother still prays for me. Her view is something that while I don’t agree with it, I can live with it. If nothing else, it makes our holidays around the table ‘interesting’ to say the least.

    At the end of the day, I think that most people who subscribe to religion are much the same. For the most part, they don’t shove their ideas down other’s throats, and if they do, they are easily ignored. For the most part, while they believe their way of viewing the world is correct, they still exist and work side by side with others who have different beliefs. And for the most part, they are productive members of society. The same can be said for agnostics or athiests. The fundamentalists, while they get all of the attention, are really a very small minority as a percentage. Yes, Dawkins, Harris, et al are right in highlighting the many atrocities that have a fundamental ideology at their base, but these acts are are still carried out by relatively small numbers. So trying to expend so much energy to reach a very small number of fundamentalists is an exercise in futility. And even if the argument is then posed for the ‘fencesitters’…whichever side of the fence these people choose to land, they still are not going to influence very many people. I referenced Collins in an earlier post. I have serious questions as to how somone at the forefront of genomics can be so ardent a supporter of god, but at the end of the day, he has also put some exceptional science out there for the world to benefit from. So in economist’s terms, it comes down to a cost-benefit analysis. Is the cost of living with the ideologies of a few misanthropes worth the benefit of having the productivity of many in science and business who are ‘on the fence’? I don’t claim to have the answer.

  38. @Steve – Good luck handling these issues re: parenting. I have enough trouble figuring out how I explain reality to myself, I’d be hard pressed to give a good explanation to anyone else. Especially a kid… because kids actually listen and take you seriously.

    Communicating atheism to my own family has been rather tough, my father is more Catholic than the pope, an uncle a priest, and a brother in theology school. I have always been an atheist but growing up I chose just to attend mass and whatnot with the family for simplicities sake. My father asked me when I was 19 if I was Catholic, and he didn’t speak to me for a while afterwards and still to this day it is an elephant int he room.

    About a year ago my brother, who is quite well versed in all things religion (BS in philosophy, graduate studies in theology), sat down with my dad and intervened. He told my father that science is my religion, and to me god is the natural world itself, and a bunch of other hippie-sounding crap I’m not sure I really agree with but it seems to help my dad not talk me into being Catholic so I don’t bother contradicting. When directly confronted by dualists I don’t mind firing the canon of atheism into their soul, but it is hard to destroy the belief system of your family.

  39. Ah, I was driving yesterday and thought of another reason I hesitate pushing people to atheism.

    Most people in America are low-grade believers in both science and religion, most people are not fundamentalists or scientists. The way that a lot of Atheists frame the discussion is as an OR scenario, you cannot believe in both science and religion. This pushes people emotionally against the wall, and threatens them in ways that are beyond the scope of the discussion.

    Steve, you mention the social component of religion, and to most people religion was a significant component of their childhood. When push comes to shove, and Dawkins et al force people to make a choice between religion or science, people are not confronted with a simple rational decision tree. By making the scenario an OR, we force people to reject their childhood culture, which people really don’t like doing even if they rationally come down on the side of the fence as science.

    So, I don’t push people because I am afraid doing so will cause them to reject science and choose religion for cultural, emotional or social reasons. Letting them be, though they may be dualists, keeps them engaged in science. Collins is obviously a strong mind, and has been able to fend off atheists, but how many good minds have been sent away from science because of the OR.

    Moreover, how many good minds have we unnecessarily sent into the arms of fundamentalism? I think I might want colleagues with cultural holdovers from childhood, especially if denying them entry into my club means they go join my enemy.

  40. I hope you are right about fundamentalism being rare. I see worrisome anecdotes all around, and hope it’s just an availability bias. Even if they are rare, they tap into the power of mythical demagoguery. And even if we ignore their leadership, the advance of technology allows for ever smaller groups, and eventually individuals, to wield weapons of mass destruction (e.g., genetically modified pathogens).

    So, I guess the question is: can we hear the voice of the modern mainstream—the evidence-seeking rationalists, the closet atheists conditioned by family to be apologists—or will pervasive norms of politeness silence their voices?

    Aero: as for parenting, David Cowan of Bessemer gave an interesting talk on the subject at TED this year. He has started a blog on advisements, an update, if you will, to a primitive moral code.

    Here is a selection from his talk on parenting:
    “Let’s address the 5 common rationalizations for religion:

    1. Religion is fun for families around holiday time. In my family, we still celebrate holidays and tell the stories, but without confusing our kids. If you can acknowledge to your children that dragons are just made up without ruining the stories, why not do the same when you tell them about Santa, or the parting of the Red Sea? Imagine the influence you’ll enjoy with them as they grow up trusting that you never lie.

    2. Without God, where do we find meaning in our lives?
    Carl Sagan answered this question with this simple reply: “Do something meaningful.”

    3. Our religion ties us to a Community. There are so many rewarding communities one can join like-minded families, starting with your children’s schools. There are charitable clubs, alumni associations, social-minded businesses, and good-old-fashioned neighborhoods. Also theatres, musical groups, and political campaigns.

    4. Kids need a foundation to teach them right from wrong and how to live. Look, I don’t object to “Do Not Kill.” In fact, I take that commandment a lot more seriously than Yehovah seems to in several parts of Deutoronomy. But the values we teach our kids are too important to simply pick and choose a la carte from among the barbaric precepts of a primitive cult. And what are the kids supposed to think about these other edicts they read in their Bibles? (Kill Heathens, Animal sacrifices, Marry in the faith, Never utter God’s name, Rape victims are adulterers, School is for boys, Don’t share a bed during menstruation, Polygamy, Birth Control is Murder, Pitting watermelon on Sabbath punishable by Death) Most of the lessons parents wish to convey don’t come from the Bible, so why start there? What better way to demonstrate the power of reason to your kids than to apply it in crafting the very values we teach them? If nothing else, I challenge you today to think about the important things you want to teach your kids. Isn’t it worth an hour of your time every now and then to review?

    5 Heaven and Hell give kids a reason to behave. Is it really more ethical to love your neighbor for fear of eternal damnation, than to do so because you care? Children have naturally good inclinations—nurturing them does take a bit more parenting then scaring them, but ultimately you make better people out of them.”

  41. I don’t think fundamentalism is as prevalent as it seems, there is a perception bias here. Fundamentalists are extremely vocal and go for shock-value acts that get seen, and I think there are actually far fewer than most people think. They put a lot of energy into creating waves.

    Hopefully they wont be able to figure out genetically modified weapons… I mean, the penalty for not liking science is, um, you know, not being good at science stuff. I saw a video on middle east bomb makers, and almost all of them are missing fingers. The penalty for messing up your GMW is high.

    I like the Cowen quote, and a quick read of ‘advisements’ was stimulating. I’ve been wondering where the next morality system is going to come from… I’ll give his writings some thought and post again.

  42. I think that this conversation as a representation of the general discussion religion-science, it lacks of a clarifying agent on the purposes of the speakers -as generally happens-. Each one of us here deems to interpret the reasons why the other speaker holds their position, and this is risky for they might get it very wrong.

    This is, each of us would have to clarify WHAT FOR (the goal forward, not "why") is their position such. This is: WHAT FOR do I believe that holding a tolerant position tending to bringing people together instead of breaking them apart (inside themselves and in relation to other people) is "better" than other opinions on the subject? Because:

    If I am worried about wars and violence, the underlaying reasons for them are not religion/science but economy and power pursuit, so trying to make the mass of people switch from one to another worldview, is ultimately useless for that purposes.

    If I am worried, tho, about the cultural impact of having the majority of the population in the world believing in god instead of pushing towards atheist technology advancement, post humanism and science, only for cultural improvement reasons, then I respond to myself that technology, science and post humanism must have not succeeded in addressing the need people have in believing in a god, so the discussion is futile. I believe that if science would have been a possible and better replacement for religion (a "smarter" option), people would have switched to it as they switched from wax candles to electric light. Hoewever, as long as this does not happen I must believe that then, religion and science are not necessarily interchangable worldviews. Therefore, if my goal to discuss this topic is cultural improvement, I tend to believe that the optimal solution to this complex problem is tryint to come to terms with both worldviews and see how they can live in harmony, or at least in a non-violent terms. (Because I believe that violence and stoic positions bring cultural stagnation actually, and not religion).

    As well, I really much fear of what really "cultural improvement" means… sounds too totalitarian and dogmatic… WHO I AM to think that my vision on what cultural improvement must be is VALID?

    So, this are the answers for the possible WHAT FORs of holding my convergent position on the subject. This is: for the pratical purposes mentioned above, respecting people´s beliefs has the same impact as respecting their freedom to dress how they like, eat what they eat, choose their music, mate, sexual orientation or their careers.

    Or should we start telling people how they should behave in all that aspects as well?

    Steve in his last posts shows for the first time in this thread one of his worries: War. I didn´t know this was one of his WHAT FORs on his fight towards religion, for I thought that he understood that war has its reason in the power and economic pursuit of a minority through violent means which has nothing to do with religion in the core. I thought his main WHAT FOR to bringing people to turn their eyes to science and stop believing in god or creation (the god and creation as the bible explains) was for reasons of "cultural advancement". That is why my speech in this conversation until he quoted the war thing from Harris, was focused in the "and who am I, or who are we to determine that switching religion for science would make us "culturally better", smarter, or improve as a species?" I would be very dogmatic if I thinked that, and this is what my argument intends to show: those thinking that science in comparison to religion -as mutually exclusive worldviews- is better than religion, are to me as dogmatic as those who think the opposite.

    So, I think we all have to reflect on what is our purpose for thinking what we think, not only for our lives themselves, but when we try to convince or explain other person why we think what we think. We have to make that clear to ourselves first in order not to mix up things and making messes, neither let others mix up our words and make messes with them accidentially or to their conscious convenience.

    Last: we should make a clear distinction between religion as an institution and its power and dogma, and religion as a personal election of certain beliefs. We have to make clear what of the 2 things matter to each of us in regard to this conversation.

  43. oddwick: funny comment there…. but not a long-term source of solace…

    Alieness: Sorry to ignore the "it’s all power and economics" and the baseness “in the heart of men” points… It just takes too much writing to discuss the counterpoint.

    Please, please read p.26-27 of The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason (search for India). By chance, I read this right after reading your post (it is as if he was responding directly):

    "People of faith tend to argue that it is not faith itself but man’s baser nature that inspires such violence. But I take it to be self-evident that ordinary people cannot be moved to burn genial old scholars alive for blaspheming the Koran, or celebrate the violent deaths of their own children, unless they believe some improbable things about the nature of the universe. Because most religions offer no valid mechanism by which their core beliefs can be tested and revised, each new generation of believers is condemned to inherit the superstitions and tribal hatred of its predecessors. If we would speak of the baseness of our natures, our willingness to live, kill and die on account of propositions for which we have no evidence should be among the topics of discussion.” (p.31)

  44. You are invited and welcome to having a conversation anytime. If not possible in person, unfortunately, there is that thing Skype… I think you might have heard of it. 😉 I am intrigued about what do you may have in your basket as counterpoint to the economic/power factor on violence and war. Suprise me!

    Using the terms of this sir you quote: "I take it to be self-evident" that there´s nothing to mitigate what reality and history show. Now… for the quote itself: "But I take it to be self-evident…" says this sir. Wow, doesn´t sound too objective, does it? So many things are "self-evident" to me.

    Help me with my memory… The Civil war in the US was religious?WWI, was a religious one? Even WWII -if you read the history bewteen world wars, the Weimar Replublic period and the end of the Gold Standard- was *really* religious? Nagasaki and Hiroshima? Vietman? The Civil War in Russia (1905-07 / 1918-22) and then Stalin? The Cold War? Mussolini, Mao? the Civil Wars in Africa? Our country´s war in the Falkland islands? Dictatorships in latin america including my country and terrorism from which millions died and there are still 30 thousand people disappeared in my country alone? Today´s wars in and with middle east would exist weren´t they the biggest known oil reserve in the world?

    In many of these examples religion has been used as a weapon and a tool, propaganda, brainwash and screen "command" to recruit people and hide the real intentions behind, because these last were perhaps not too "compelling" for ordinary people (the ones who vote and go to war en masse. You blame these sad world happenings on the fact that if people were not vulnerable for having faith, they would not abide this manipulations. I blame it on those who have the intentions to manipulate people on first place for their personal agendas, because they will always find a way to brainwash the mass. Sometimes is religion, other times (many more in recent history) was ideologies about politics and economic systems. Tomorrow can be science. Indoctrination is indoctrination, no matter what is the idea at the moment they are trying to influence people with to later use them.

    Sir Harris says:
    "If we would speak of the baseness of our natures, our willingness to live, kill and die on account of propositions for which we have no evidence should be among the topics of discussion"

    I do agree in this, I just add that these propositions he talks about are not exclusive to the religious arena. People fought capitalism being told that communism was better and viceversa, and there isn´t, neither was a historic record or evidence in nature to sustain any of those ideas as true -to bring an example-. And… btw, do you consider Patriotism as a form of religion?

    OK, I leave you the question to reflect upon, Sorry for the lengths of the posts, a one-second idea requires a 5 minutes read and a 20 mintes writting. Alas…! Thank you. =)

  45. not sure who you are arguing with at this point. Nobody asserted that all conflict was religious – that would be a doozy.

    There is some hope that conflict for economic reasons will lessen as we forge more economic interdependence as nations. For a humorous twist, Thomas Friedman argues that no country with a McDonald’s had gone to war with another. (wikipedia)

    At least there are theories for how modernity and progress will lessen the incidence of war for economic and political reasons.

    For a optimistic review of the data, Steven Pinker finds that violence is dramatically declining: “The decline of violence is a fractal phenomenon, visible at the scale of millennia, centuries, decades, and years. It applies over several orders of magnitude of violence, from genocide to war to rioting to homicide to the treatment of children and animals. And it appears to be a worldwide trend, though not a homogeneous one. The leading edge has been in Western societies, especially England and Holland, and there seems to have been a tipping point at the onset of the Age of Reason in the early seventeenth century.” (New Republic, 3/19/07)

    At the end of the article, he gives four hypotheses for the progress, all related to political, economic, and technological advances.

    As for the Bible: “This supposed source of moral values contains many celebrations of genocide, in which the Hebrews, egged on by God, slaughter every last resident of an invaded city. The Bible also prescribes death by stoning as the penalty for a long list of nonviolent infractions, including idolatry, blasphemy, homosexuality, adultery, disrespecting one’s parents, and picking up sticks on the Sabbath. The Hebrews, of course, were no more murderous than other tribes; one also finds frequent boasts of torture and genocide in the early histories of the Hindus, Christians, Muslims, and Chinese.”

    Alieness: It sounded like you were dismissing the religious wars and conflicts as a smokescreen for some underlying issue – revolving around economics. That is incorrect. The “counterpoint” I mentioned was in the link I gave in my last comment. I should have drawn more attention to it. (*** Click here *** , and then read p. 26-27 😉

    You really owe it to yourself to read those 2 pages… carefully… to put the other half of this thread in context.

  46. careful Eppie…just because humans have evolved our current level of conciousness, does not mean that we are more complex or highly evolved.

  47. Ok – it looks like you addressed that in your next paragraph – I hadn’t read all the way through before I fired that one off… ; ]

    I light of this, when it comes to gaining a better understanding of who/what/why/etc…, the ‘shared realm’ is ineffective for searching for the answers that humanity seeks. And these answers are at the heart of most of the responses in this thread. You mention that much information regarding knowledge transmission has been passed down via oral tradition, and you also justly recognize the limitations and weaknesses of such a medium. I argue that we absolutely have found the way to "access the immense amount of knowledge that is available to us (on any level if we only know how to look)", and it is entirely based in empirical reasoning. Stories passed down from generations, fables, the tales of mystics (on and on) are extremely useful in preserving cultural and historical occurences. But there needs to be a non-permeable line drawn between the worlds of mystics and the physicists (biophysicists included).

    I should state that I am not the type of scientist who dismisses anecdotal data, or information that can’t be reproduced in the laboratory. Quite the opposite actually – I spend most of my time building theoretical computer models, a process which requires the imagination to wander beyond what is ‘testable’. Some of the best algorithms come from trying to represent an idea that I know ‘should not work’ in reality. But these answers that we are searching for can most effectively be addressed through the lens of evolutionary history – which goes well beyond the 2.5 million years that Homo sapiens has been around. And there absolutely is a place at the table for the philosophical arguments that accompany our findings. So if we are to honestly assess all of the ‘why’ questions, including why people do the things that they do, the arguments should be based on what is uncovered via the scientific method.

  48. seems like the timing of my post yesterday (…There are now numerous arguments taking place at many medical schools that evobio and ecology should be stressed to 1st year med students right along with physiology and biochemistry (I am continuously amazed how many doctors aren’t very well trained in some of the basic sciences….) was unintentionally well timed. I came across this article in PLoS – Biology this afternoon:

    biology.plosjournals.org/archive/1545-7885/5/4/pdf/10.137…

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