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Had breakfast with an Israeli who was convinced Iran will attack Israel, and that in the face of annihilation, Israel should launch 1/3 of its arsenal back at Iran, 1/3 at Mecca and Medina and 1/3 at Europe.

Bit of a downer to start the day.

But it reminded me of a talk by Bruce Bueno de Mesquita, a consultant to the CIA who applies game theory to make uncanny predictions of political and warfighting events with about 90% accuracy.

“Game theory applies to everyone except 2 year olds and schizophrenics. It assumes people are rationally self-interested, that people have values and beliefs, and that they face limitations.”

“You have to analyze the influencers, and consider how everyone shapes the outcome.”

“The stock market is not predictable, but most complicated negotiations are.”

So he has been studying the lower ranks of the Iranian decision hierarchy.

On his graph above, the white line shows his prediction if Iran were allowed to proceed without external pressure. The efforts of the U.S. and others to direct Iran’s course raise the risk of bad outcomes (the orange line).

“The President and the mullahs will lose influence, except the quiet, moderate ayatollahs in Qume who will gain. Moneyed interests will also gain.”

His conclusion is that Iran will produce enough weapons grade fuel (WGF) to prove they can – out of pride – but they won’t build the bomb.

Whew, I’m feeling so much better now…..

25 responses to “Iran’s Nuclear Future”

  1. If I was convinced that my neighbor was going to kill me, and my only course of action was to kill my other neighbors out of spite, I’d probably move.

  2. Why "1/3 at Europe"? Europe has not been exactly defending Israel. Perhaps they have even been enabling Iran (Russia has definitely been playing in that role, and probably Ger). Still, the logic of attacking Europe is a puzzlement….?

    As for moving, in the case of Israel, I think it was just suggested that the neighborhood would be changed.

  3. All countries in the world (and especially the USA and Western European nations, who are at the root of the problem) should give to all Israelis, during, say, a twenty-year transitional period, the right to citizenship, so that they can all orderly emigrate out of the Middle East, and allow Palestine to be an Arab state.

    The remarkable prominence of Jews in the art and science fields indicates that they are, in general, the kind of intelligent, inventive and industrious people who would be welcome additions to the workforce and population of most nations.
    Increasing enlightenment and the receding of medieval religious prejudices means that large communities of Jews already live in Western Europe and the USA, unthreatened and well-integrated. Jews emigrating from Israel should thus also be able to carve an appropriate socio-economic position for themselves in these countries, given a couple of decades.

    After six decades of Jewish immigration in Palestine and the accompanying bloody conflict, it’s plain enough that Israel is an immoral, failed state that can survive only by violence, fencing off and choking the original Palestinian Arab population in economically and environmentally not viable, concrete and barbed wire-fenced Bantustans / Lager.

    The passengers of spaceship Earth are sick and tired of the bloodshed in the Middle East, caused by what is basically an "overbooking" of Palestine by a coterie of politicians influenced by inane religious (e.g. fundamentally anti-semitic Christian) worldviews, who also regarded as an irrelevant and negligible quantity the Arab population that had already been living in Palestine for centuries.

    It’s about time to recognize that the resolution in 1948 by the United Nations (influenced in a not insignificant part by guilt about the Shoah, and by Zionist terrorism) that allowed the creation of Israel, and promoted the subsequent immigration / casting off / dumping of Jews into Palestine, was as misguided and short-sighted as the likes of the Treaty of Versailles or the Munich Agreement.

    To people unencumbered with Evangelical or Torah blinders, it’s obvious that the PLO, Fatah or Hamas are no less "justified" in their operations than the Zionist terrorist organisations like Haganah or Irgun were — i.e. seeking to secure, through violence, a nation for their people.

    Aid and assistance by the USA, among others, have made the Israel military the most potent in the region. An Israeli general like Moshe Yaalon might argue that it’s about time the Palestinians recognize that they are "defeated people" who should presumably, like proper Untermensch, bow down before their rulers / Herren.

    It would, however, be foolish to expect that such will happen, or to understimate the continuously renewed, seething anger caused among the Palestinians by an Israeli repression system that basically guarantees a continuous renewal of Palestinian terrorist candidates. Also note that the natality among Palestinians is higher than among Jews, with as inevitable consequence a dwindling, minority status for the Jews in the region’s population.

    Israeli politicians like Avigdor Lieberman, recognizing the difficulty of the problem, seem to have taken a leaf from a fairly recent History book, and preach what is effectively a Final Solution of the Palestinian Question / Endlösung der JudenPalästinerfrage, using e.g. the nuclear weapons in Tsahal’s arsenal. There is something fundamentally flawed about a state construct in which such morally bankrupt political options are considered.

    It might be difficult for the political class in the USA and Western Europe, who are very much the ideological descendants of the 1948 establishments, to recognize and acknowledge that they have erred in their Middle East policy. Besides, can establishment politicians ever really put themselves in the shoes of people who are at the receiving end of state-sponsored violence, repression and segregation ?

    Still, let’s dream: wouldn’t it be better to offer the Israelis a face-saving exit option, letting them emigrate, or for lots of them, return to Europe or the US, leaving a god-forsaken, parched land whose water supply can’t even be secured without illegally seizing territories like the Golan heights, thereby guaranteeing the enmity of a powerful neighbor like Syria ? Besides, since when is it legitimate to cross borders to occupy and annex territories, just by deeming the latter as essential living space / Lebensraum ?

    Isn’t it about time to "reset" and clean up that toxic legacy of colonialism, WW2 and antisemitism by resolving that territorial overbooking in Palestine ? Shouldn’t we give the option to Jews to settle back e.g. in Europe or the US, where they could channel their energies to more productive endeavors (e.g. researching "green" technologies) than wasting enormous economic resources developing and maintaining Israel’s "security" state apparatus ?

    Looking at the big picture, isn’t the economic benefit of eliminating a major cause of Islam’s antagonism obvious for Western countries ? Eschewing the financing, aiding and abetting of those political systems (e.g. Israel, or the feudal, corrupt and autocratic regimes in oil-producing Arab countries) seen as loathsome by an immense number of Muslims would go a long way towards eliminating the kind of hostility that inspired e.g. 9-11. That asinine disregard for Arabic and Muslim sensitivities is forcing trillions of dollars to be channelled to the security and defense budgets in Western countries, at the expense e.g. of healthcare, education or environmental protection and research. Considering the influence of mankind on Earth’s environment, can we afford such an unbalanced and wasteful allocation of economic resources ?

    Reducing Western involvement with, and dependency on oil-producing regions in the Middle East would also go a long way towards alleviating the concern against foreign interventionism that fuels e.g. the possible development of nuclear weapons by "paranoid" governments like Iran’s.
    Iranians, unlike most American people, probably haven’t forgotten the American "influence" in their country in the Shah’s and Mossadegh’s times…

  4. "Still, let’s dream: wouldn’t it be better to offer the Israelis a face-saving exit option, letting them emigrate, or for lots of them, return to Europe or the US, leaving a god-forsaken, parched land whose water supply can’t even be secured without illegally seizing territories like the Golan heights, thereby guaranteeing the enmity of a powerful neighbor like Syria ?"

    I think it’s impossible. Jews hate Western Europe because in the Middle Ages they were slaughtered in Spain or France etc. The only country letting them come and live in peace was Poland. That’s why before the World War II it was the greatest jew community in the world. For example in the city I live, there were 40% Jews. We know Germans came and killed the most of them, and the rest escaped to Israel or US. And now of 230k people there is like zero jewish. I can tell You, if Jews are talking about sending nukes to Europe, they mean it. That nation’s only religion is "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth"

  5. Why Europe? It’s the Sampson option. Bring the house down on everyone’s head. A prominent former Israeli general talked candidly a few years back about having nuclear weapons targeted at Europe.

    Using any kind of long term risk analysis model on Israel vs. Iran, it’s inevitable a clash of the sort nobody would like to see, is going to happen at some point. It gets too easy to build a small nuke to walk into Tel Aviv eventually (extrapolate Iranian nuke tech out 20 years, with Iran giving the job to a proxy, which won’t matter, Iran will get the credit properly anyway), and I don’t blame Israel for not waiting around for that day.

  6. A part of Germany could be made the nation for jews, protected internationally (aka USA).

  7. Wow . . nice commentary. Best conversation online I have heard. I agree with NHR and Huffman.

    Real simple. Let’s get the f-off oil and let the Middle East rot.

  8. Israel is the 51st state. Based on our annual "foreign aid" donations to them, they should all be paying income taxes to the US Treasury. Happy to have them aboard, but lets call a state a state.

    And our meddling with Iran is a complete fiasco. I agree with Bueno de Mesquita, game theory says our interventionist policies there can only end badly. Over time, if Iran wants nukes, they will make them. Nothing we can do about it.

    As for Israel threatening to nuke Europe, it makes no sense except as a sure way to turn the holy land and the dream of the Zionist state into a smoking radioactive crater. Israel CAN be entirely destroyed by a few well placed nuclear missiles. All of Israel’s nukes could only give Europe a few painful flesh wounds.

    Israel exists at the pleasure of the Western democracies. They need to start behaving like one, instead of the semi-desperate, hypocritical fascist-aggressor-bully-state they’ve become.

  9. fyi, the video of Bruce’s lecture is now online.

  10. If the USA would wean Israel from foreign aid, it may make an impact on the attitude of the leadership there. A mass exodus is not the solution. All parties involved need to work together. One party is much stronger than the others. There’s no hope while fundamentalist zealots on all sides control the peoples. This method of predicting the future based on psychology fits perfectly.

    If Israel is indeed thinking of nuking Europe, then the same game theory applies. "My neighbor, Israel is going to nuke me… better nuke him first", but then there’s the USA bodyguard.

    Backing off US support will end the struggle, one way or another. I don’t know which. Of course, the status quo is not so bad compared to nuclear attacks.

  11. @moisesdiaz "A part of Germany could be made the nation for jews, protected internationally (aka USA). "
    Or… probably a more reasonable and doable solution, a part of Syria, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, etc could be made the nation for Palestinians, protected internationally by whoever. Of course, that won’t happen. Those countries don’t want their brothers, the Palestinians. And the conflict is NOT about a Palestinian homeland. It won’t end even if every Israeli emigrated to Australia, or Timbuktu… or just disappeared. Israel was a dust bowl before 1945. It would rapidly become that again if the Israelis left. Sort of like parts of Paris… and all of Lebanon.

  12. @pegleg000 – "A part of Germany could be made the nation for jews…"

    You could call it Jewmany.

  13. @todd huffman – hmmmm…. hilarious…. I guess.

    Just for clarity, that quote about Germany is not mine.

  14. nhr, the emigration you speak of is precisely the situation Jews were before 1948. As a Jew I can tell you that I’d rather have a homeland and die amongst my people, than die in a cattle car in a foreign land by foreign people. At least then you have a chance and if you go, you go with dignity.

  15. By the way, I don’t know if you realize it but that is a very racist and imperialist-slave like way to speak of Jews. It is equivalent of how Europeans viewed blacks as strong and powerful and their abilities were better used by bringing them to work to colonies around the world. Just because Jews are inventive and have had a big impact on the world, why should they loose their homeland, ability to work for themselves and work for Europe’s betterment like slaves? Jews are a people and deserve as much as any other nation and any other people, deserve to live on this earth in peace and of course use their work to keep building on their culture. It is a people with a land, language and culture and although contributions they create will be good for all and bad as there are good and bad people in every culture, there is no reason to destroy it and make them a diaspora again because of a conflict that is inconvenient for the west.

    Furthermore, there are many arabs that are Christian, Druze and many other people that live in Israel that would prefer that Palestinian Muslim corrupt and authoritarian rule not be spread to the area that is now Israel. It also seems like a strange priority to give to a majority that holds entire Middle East and take away a 50 mile strip from a minority.

    soo… in the end I think this best describes my comment:
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/sam-_-/3542850365/

  16. sbove: One Israeli making a stupid comment does not represent Israel. so I would not give much thought about Israel nuking a third of Europe, that is right up in the realms of possibilities with the world destroying Finland for wanting to come clean with Space Police (southpark)

  17. @photosam88 – "is a very racist and imperialist-slave like way to speak of Jews". I think you are blowing things out of proportion. This is a dialogue – not a KKK rally.

  18. I am all for this discussion, I think its great! Of course I understand that this is not a bigoted group of people and I’m not calling anyone racist, I promise. I’m just saying that in pursuit of efficiency we can objectify people and this is no way to speak of people and culture no matter how resourceful they are and no matter how bad geopolitics are in the region. My aim was to show that what the person said was insensitive even though I understand that it was not their intention. Again focusing on the word choice, not on the person.


  19. > nhr, the emigration you speak of is precisely the situation
    > Jews were before 1948

    My impression, OTOH, is that quite significant changes have occured on the planet in the past six decades. The diminishing influence of bigoted religious ideologies in Western countries, for one thing. The waning influence of nationalistic ideologies and the emergence of supranational cooperation and coordination mechanisms. The increased dematerialization of value creation processes, and the larger share of the service sector in the industrialized nations’ GDP. This is, in general, conducive to more varied and rewarding job opportunities for educated, intellectually agile workers.

    > As a Jew I can tell you that I’d rather have a homeland and
    > die amongst my people, than die in a cattle car in a foreign
    > land by foreign people. At least then you have a chance and
    > if you go, you go with dignity.

    There seems to be an implication that for a Jew to live abroad is to somehow lack in dignity. I’m afraid such an assertion is going to be found rather insultingamusing by these Jews living in Europe and in the US, despite them being surrounded by cattlegoyim. Anyway, in your imagination, maybe these stained Jews live in cattle cars…

    There also seems to be some kind of implied dignity in living in a "homeland" that is a fiction only maintained through the oppression and killing of its original inhabitants, but the latter seem to be irrelevant subhumans not worth a thought anyway.

    > By the way, I don’t know if you realize it but that is a very
    > racist and imperialist-slave like way to speak of Jews. [..]
    > Just because Jews are inventive and have had a big impact on the
    > world, why should they loose their homeland, ability to work for
    > themselves and work for Europe’s betterment like slaves?

    Like it or not, the subtext of various nations’ immigration policies is that there is a preference for the immigrants to bring tangible value to the accepting country, and proposal documents must have a modicum of "sellability" in such contexts.

    Furthermore, it’s unfortunate that the mental concepts you associate with "work" happen to be exploitation and slavery. In Europe and in the US, a rather common view is that "work" can be a means to achieve personal development, deliver meaning and gain satisfaction, linked e.g. to a sense of contributing value to the community. It’s about being a productive member of society, of being able to pull one’s weight.

    By the way, Europe and the US are capitalist societies where individual contributions have plenty of scope to be rewarded, even if you are Jew, and that ethnicity won’t close you any entrepreneurial avenues either, should you want to be your own boss.

    > there is no reason to destroy it and make them a diaspora again
    > because of a conflict that is inconvenient for the west.

    Are we to understand that the only way to maintain Jewish culture is, in effect, by oppressing the Palestinians ? I wonder what kind of culture the various overseas Talmudic schools, synagogues and vibrant Jewish communities — including e.g. the Hasidic ones in New York city or Antwerp — transmit, and what they would say about your implied assertion.

    > It also seems like a strange priority to give to a majority
    > that holds entire Middle East and take away a 50 mile strip
    > from a minority.

    Well, that invading "minority" has proven that it hasn’t the ability to achieve a fair and equitable modus vivendi with the area’s original inhabitants. Their policies are also becoming more and more repugnant, and not all of the world opinion agrees that Palestinians are irrelevant subhumans that should just shut up and stay in their camps, or die.

    > soo… in the end I think this best describes my comment:
    > http://www.flickr.com/photos/sam-_-/3542850365/

    Cute. I wonder which country manufactured these planes, and whence the maintenance and repair parts are being sourced. There are also various other points that might be worth pondering.

  20. Things changed for better in sixty years and things can change for worse, it wont be the first time in history that it would do that. In fact early thirties in Germany were very good for Jews, there was even less religious zealotry than now and within a few years things changed and there was no way for Jews to stand up for themselves and no one to stand up for them. This made the necessity of statehood.

    You can not argue that there is no dignity or pride associated with statehood. American’s are proud to be Americans, Jamaicans are proud to be Jamaicans, it has nothing to do with living with goyim or not, it has to do with building a nation you can be proud of.

    Yes personal labor can be rewarding financially and spiritually but it is also in a sense patriotic because as you remember JFK said ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country. Those who pay taxes pay them towards a purpose and those who work in public service work for the good of the people and the country.

    Jews lived in harmony with Arabs for centuries. Far better than with christians and still do. Jews had lived there for centuries and it was agreed that it would go back to them by British and then agreed by the world as UN accepted Israel’s statehood. It was hours after that that Arab states declared war on Israel. You really have to remember that all land in Israel’s possession is a result of wars started by their neighbors and has been used as bargaining chips for peace; Sainai with Egypt, Golan will be with Syria.

    Majority of refugees left by choice when they planned to come back after the promised extermination of Jews by Arabs in 1948. Arab towns currently in Israel have no desire to be absorbed by Palestine, they have been offered that choice and they refused.

    Israelis have no desire to live with Arabs in anything but peace as evident by the peace they enjoy with Jordan and Egypt. Even war in Lebanon of 1982, Israel was asked by Lebanon to come and help when Syrian Hazbullah attempted to take control. The idea that Israel and Jewish Israelis are repressive the way most people describe is simply not the reality that is there.

    Having been in Israel, there is tension as in any free country but I would say that the people there are not down trodden, that is exaggeration by people who haven’t been there. If you want to see down trodden poverty you don’t have to go to Israel, you just have to go to any inner city neighborhood or any of the hundreds of reservations in USA.


  21. > it has to do with building a nation you can be proud of.

    The key issue is whether one can be proud architecting a "nation" over the oppression and bloodshed of the original inhabitants of an occupied territory, but I guess this hinges on an ability to conveniently erase from the mind any spurious concerns over the fate of the defeated subhumans.

    There’s also a saying that patriotism, in some of its all too easily perverted forms, is the last refuge of a certain type of people.

  22. Well, Jews are the original inhabitants, they were exiled from that land and the only known sovereign nation to have existed there based on the archaeological evidence are the Jewish states of Judea and Israel.

    Furthermore, if you are alive today it means that with almost complete certainty your relatives at some point subjugated and exterminated some culture and another so with that in mind you can apply your moral standard to any country and argue that they should leave the land they occupy as they are there by force and conveniently erase the concerns over the fate of defeated subhumans.

    Nevertheless, I don’t believe that Arabs in Israel are subhuman given they have all the rights that citizens of Israel are given including right to vote and be in parliament. They receive same services and in fact are allowed to skip military service should they choose to unlike those who are Jewish.

    Given that the Arabs there never had a specific nation or culture tied to that specific area at any point of time and had always been part of some empire, because of that their nationality can easily be Jordanian, Israeli or anything else they choose. However, Israel may need to work on the idea of a "Jewish democracy" as obviously that kind of wording can create schism the same way that religious zealots in America do by arguing that US is a christian nation.

  23. Photosam88 and NHR – I would love to have dinner with you two and talk philosophy, politics, and religion. 🙂 Far fetch I know.

    I am intrigued with this conversation and with the politics / religions of Israel and can’t find anyone to talk to me intelligently about it – except you two.

    Usually I get accused of being an anti-semite by a Jewish person just for asking questions, contemplating US policy, media coverage, and looking more into the Palestinian side. Every situation has two sides of the story and I am genuinely interested in both sides. I am not looking to pick a side as much just learn about the situation.

    Great posts!

  24. Your "other points" link where you accuse Israel of being amoral and not having normal relations with the Middle East seems to ignore their treaties and normalized relations with Jordan, Lebannon, Turkey, Pakistan, Egypt, West Bank and now their talks with Syria.

    Furthermore you accuse the amoral country as the one with free press and a full democracy rather than theocratic dictatorship that exists in the rest of the middle east. Because it is a free democracy is why most of the west supports Israel and those countries which do not allow their citizens freedom, admonish it.

    It is easy to buy into terrorist propaganda, they are experts at asymmetrical and propaganda warfare, but one must remember that they are terrorist and criminals, dictatorial, corrupt and without a free press so one really needs to think hard because there is a disconnect between what they say and what they do.

    Finally, yes those planes in the picture are made by US but a big portion of electronics and software that goes into them is made by Israel. Also Israel makes and supports majority of the UAVs that America uses today.

    But that wasn’t my point, Israel defeated the Arab nations with only one plane in 1948, the point was that as a sovereign nation, Jews are finally able to stand up to attacks and attempts to destroy their race and culture.

    I understand that what I’m saying is something hard for anyone to comprehend who has not experienced such attacks on their person or relatives but look to any nation that had a similar experience and you’ll see a tight bond between them and Jews as they have deep understanding of what it is like to be alone in the world and what it is like to beat the odds and survive.

    There eventually there will be two states: Israel and Palestine. But at present there can only be Israel or Hamas and until the situation improves, new political leadership emerges to quell the criminal aspect of the organization as it happened in Northern Ireland, there will only be only one state and a terrorist territory.

  25. Thanks jmcminn, yeah that would be awesome, but I do find that when such talks occur behind a dinner table that eventually passions run home. I have been called an anti-semite even in my own home 🙂
    For hardliners I can never be Jewish enough and for liberals I am always an imperialist oppressor. Sadly there is no room in this world for moderates.

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