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18 responses to “Macbeth”
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Love Udvar-Hazy ! Looks like you had a sunny day for your visit.
Random fact: I went to school on Pease AFB with the daughter of Col. Ferebee, the bombadier on the Enola Gay. -
The Enola Gay was temporarily parked at my dad’s WWII air base (Pyote "Rattlesnake" AFB) in West Texas back in 1952. They mothballed hundreds of old B-17s and B-29s there for years, starting in 1946, eventually scrapping most of them.
She does have quite a glow about her!
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I have to say I’m partial to the SR71 they have there.
The last time I visited in ’04 they also had the Space Shuttle Enterprise on location –
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Commanda: Truman’s shortcomings aside, you’re engaging in a bit of revisionist history. In 1945, the US Army was preparing for a full-scale invasion of the Japanese mainland (Operation Downfall). Having experienced the bloodbaths that were Bougainville, Tarawa, Okinawa, Iwo Jima, etc., and knowing that the Japanese would typically rather die than surrender, the US Army projected casualties of around 1 million MINUMUM on the Japanese side, and in the hundreds of thousands MINIMUM on the American side.
So while the nuclear bombings of Japan were no doubt horrific, they also no doubt saved a multitude of lives. (I also note that you seem to feel no outrage at the the conventional firebombing of Tokyo in 1945, which was equally catastrophic. Is that convenient and occasional morality on your part, or just a lack of historical knowledge?)
There is also little doubt that racism played a part in the decision to drop the bombs. Similarly, Japanese racism played a part in their appalling treatment of the Chinese…and of American POWs. (Read James Bradley’s excellent and evenhanded Flyboys. It should prove enlightening.)
This was a time of desperate war, something you apparently cannot appreciate from the comfort of your 21st-century home (in Berkeley, perhaps?). Second-guessing the decision is easy now–too easy. But at the time, it would have been idiotic not to use any technological advantage available that might shorten the war. Hundreds of thousands of GI’s would tell you that. And so would their kids and grandkids.
So while the Enola Gay should not be "glamorized," as you say, it should also not be ignored, nor denigrated.
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Well, seems a pot has been stirred.
No, Steve, I don’t know what the Colonel’s feelings were over the years, after the fact. I was in 7th grade at the time and moved on to another AFBase, as most in the military do.
Nothing wrong with intellegent discussion of past history, right or wrong, but the venom above is neither productive or neccessary! -
I enjoy the freedom of discussion on Steve’s page. Everyone has a right to express opinions. When it is done in the proper tone, we can feel interested in reading. However, when there is tone and language used such as above, it is not only disrespectful to everyone who peeks in here, it is more so to Steve. It is HIS page. Steve is always very respectful to everyone and does not deserve to have someone use his page to talk disrespectfully to others.
EDIT: The language was considerably cleaned-up some time after my comment was initially made.
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msamaclean: A little venom can be amusing! Besides, I have no idea what a "beephat" is. Sounds pretty funny, though!
commanda: You seem to think that racism is something only white people can perpetrate. The Japanese definitely looked at Americans as racially inferior during WWII. Just as they did the Chinese. It allowed the Japanese to dehumanize both. And, in certain cases, to eat them. (Yes, retributive cannibalism.) Rasicm is always ugly, no matter the source. (I note that you do not mention the firebombing of Dresden by the RAF in February 1945, which killed tens of thousands of civilians. Maybe because they were Caucasian, they don’t fit your argument?)
My viewpoints are informed by books, yes. (They’re a great source of information about the past.) But I also have other sources. My father and his two brothers served in WWII. My uncle was at Anzio, Salerno, and Monte Cassino as an infantry medic. His division was all but wiped out several times in ferocious fighting against a determined German enemy.
And the Japanese were even tougher and more ruthless. (I also know two Iwo Jima veterans.) Remember the kamikaze? Banzai attacks? The Bataan Death March? This was not an enemy that was ready to give up. There were ambiguous peace overtures in July 1945, but nothing concrete. And on July 28, 1945, Japanese Prime Minister Kantaro Suzuki denounced the American surrender ultimatum, vowing that Japan would fight to the end. On August 6 and 9, the bombs were dropped. Japan surrendered on August 15. Those are the facts.
There are also several Japanese atomic survivors who supported the bombs, in retrospect, because they shortened the war. Do you regard them as deluded? I see them as heroic and stunningly selfless.
As for the casualty estimates, the US suffered 26,000 casualties on the tiny rock of Iwo Jima. That was against a garrison of 22,000 Japanese, 20,000 of whom died. Do you really think that the estimates for invading the main islands of Japan were inflated? I tend to think they were conservative.
War is never pleasant, and it is never fought in a perfect and gallant manner. Tempers run hot, especially as the years and deaths mount. Decisions are made; some are right, and some are not. But given the quick Japanese surrender after the bombs, and the preclusion of a ground invasion, it’s hard to find fault with that decision. The bombs ended the war in less than a week. Hundreds of thousands–maybe millions–of people owe their lives to that fact.
Please note that even today, there is strong resistance in Japan against the teaching of Japanese atrocities during WWII. Fighting ignorance is a contant battle. But Japan is a thriving democracy, for the most part–a far cry from the miltaristic society of the 1930 and ’40’s.
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commanda: I have Japanese friends in Tokyo and Kyoto. Not that it has any bearing on this discussion.
Here is an excerpt from a letter dated August 9, 1945, from Harry Truman to Senator Richard Russell, who wanted to continue the most devastating attacks possible:
"I know that Japan is a terribly cruel and uncivilized nation in warfare but I can’t bring myself to believe that, because they are beasts, we should ourselves act in that same manner.
For myself I certainly regret the necessity of wiping out whole populations because of the ‘pigheadedness’ of the leaders of a nation, and for your information, I am not going to do it unless it is absolutely necessary. It is my opinion after the Russians enter into the war the Japanese will shortly fold up.
My object is to save as many American lives as possible but I also have a humane feeling for the women and children in Japan."[Quoted from Conflict & Crisis, The Presidency of Harry S. Truman, 1945-1948, p. 100.]
This Truman hardly sounds like the bloodthirsty racist you would make him out to be.
But honestly, commanda, I suspect that your disparagement of the Holocaust tells us all we need to know about you.
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nice shot of a famous (or infamous) plane. Will I venture an opinion …..no, I have dinner waiting and that’s far more interesting (and tasty too) than a history I can’t possibly influence. Will I raise my kids right…."yes", end of discussion imho.
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Donna Reed’s correspondence to B-29 gunner:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/25/arts/25donna.html?pagewanted=1... -
My uncle saw the Enola Gay when it was in an old barn in the 70’s. He seems to have a lot of run-ins with planes,even now-a military transport flew over his house a few weeks back at treetop level,a B-17 pilot flew so low over him he could reach up and touch it when he was 10,and he flew on a B-17 multiple times!
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